Adressing President HH and choosing therapy over church

[00:00:13] Speaker A: Young girl's dream is to be a princess. I have a daughter, so you want to. Princess Fiona. Cinderella, Princess Sofia, the fair, you see? And then there's. Who's that one with a lot of hair like you? Yes. Is it Rapunzel? [00:00:31] Speaker B: That was the long hair, but it's like yellow. [00:00:33] Speaker A: Yes, yes. Then is Pocantas. No, Pocantas is not a Pocahontas. [00:00:37] Speaker B: I've not watched it, and I really want to watch it. It's actually. [00:00:41] Speaker A: Yes. So when I see somebody who's Lozi, I'm thinking, this must be a lousy princess or a queen, because we have the litunga. So I don't know what I'm going to use with you. So which one should I use? [00:00:56] Speaker B: We can use Princess. [00:00:57] Speaker A: The princess. Okay. [00:00:59] Speaker B: Though I do prefer the queen because the queens had some kind of aura back in the day when it comes to history. [00:01:04] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Zed education podcast. Today I am joined like you heard by a queen princess, a girl from. From the Lozi kingdom. We have Shishimo Kumatongo. Do I pronounce that? Do you speak loy? [00:01:31] Speaker B: Yes, I do. [00:01:32] Speaker A: Okay, so who greets like this? How do you greet as men and women? What's. What's that about? [00:01:37] Speaker B: I don't know about men, but I do believe. Okay. For men, I think that's the one with the straight hands. And then for women. [00:01:42] Speaker A: For women, it's like this. [00:01:44] Speaker B: Yes. [00:01:44] Speaker A: Okay. Okay, that's. That's good. Welcome to the education podcast. [00:01:49] Speaker B: Thank you very much for having me. [00:01:50] Speaker A: Yeah. You're looking all great. [00:01:52] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:01:52] Speaker A: And I'm looking for a great conversation. Thank you. Do you have a nickname? A nickname that your friends that are watching this will say? [00:02:03] Speaker B: You know, I have a lot of nicknames. My parents call me. Yes. [00:02:09] Speaker C: Okay. [00:02:09] Speaker B: My friends call me. [00:02:11] Speaker A: I would have. I was waiting for Cshe. Yes. Which one is your favorite nickname? [00:02:17] Speaker B: I think Shay. Shay. Because, like, it's what my dad calls me. [00:02:20] Speaker A: Okay. [00:02:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:21] Speaker A: Okay, okay. [00:02:22] Speaker B: But, like, I only let my dad call me that. I. And my mom. So. [00:02:25] Speaker A: Okay, so what should I call you for this? Okay. [00:02:30] Speaker B: Yes. [00:02:32] Speaker A: Last week, if I'm not mistaken, we had the news break saying over 2,000 women are struggling with mental health because of relationships. If I'm not mistaken, some months back, there was also an issue of the increasing number of mental health challenges in terms of people that are accessing services from Chinama. And this was amongst the young people, and I believe you are among those young people. Hope you're not among the 2,000 ladies. And, and, and today I would want to have a conversation with you because you're in the edge space that was mostly cited, but also you are an advocate for mental health. [00:03:21] Speaker B: Yes. [00:03:21] Speaker A: So before we go into the mental health, who is Queen Shayshe Quince? Yes. [00:03:30] Speaker B: She's just a young, emotional, very sensitive girl, by the way. That's why she even ventured into this in the first place. Ambitious as well. [00:03:39] Speaker A: Okay. [00:03:40] Speaker B: Very loving and caring. And I think to some extent she's. She tends to be melancholic. [00:03:48] Speaker A: Okay. [00:03:48] Speaker B: Yes. [00:03:49] Speaker A: Okay. Is that who she really is or she just finds herself drifting in the melancholy, I think, personality? [00:03:56] Speaker B: Herself drifting. The melancholy personality. Because, you know, when you go certain, when you go through certain things in life, it's like, you know, you sort of become used to certain emotions. [00:04:09] Speaker A: Okay. [00:04:09] Speaker B: And it sort of becomes your comfort place. But of course that's not healthy when you overdo it. But it's like you need to draw a balance. Okay, Right. So it's like the familiarity aspect of it. That's why it, it feels safer. But like, obviously there are days you have to come out of it. [00:04:25] Speaker A: Okay. [00:04:25] Speaker B: Yes. [00:04:26] Speaker A: How many provinces have you lived in your lifetime? [00:04:30] Speaker B: Two. [00:04:30] Speaker A: Two? [00:04:31] Speaker B: Those are copper belt and Lusaka. [00:04:33] Speaker A: Copper? [00:04:34] Speaker B: Yes. [00:04:35] Speaker A: Okay. Which. Which part of Copper belts? Which part of Kitwe? [00:04:47] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Yeah. [00:04:52] Speaker A: Okay. So can I take it that your childhood was a Coppola? [00:04:56] Speaker B: Yes. [00:04:56] Speaker A: So do you have, you know what they say about copper girls? [00:04:59] Speaker B: What do they say about them? [00:05:00] Speaker A: That they're aggressive. [00:05:03] Speaker B: I don't know. I'm a very sweet. [00:05:06] Speaker A: Okay. [00:05:06] Speaker B: Soft, sensitive girl. [00:05:08] Speaker A: How many years did you spend in the cobab? [00:05:11] Speaker B: I initially I was born in Muflira, then we moved to Kitway. [00:05:17] Speaker A: Okay. [00:05:18] Speaker B: We moved from Kita to Lusaka when I was, I think 12. [00:05:23] Speaker A: Okay. [00:05:24] Speaker B: Yeah. So 12 years of my life. [00:05:26] Speaker A: 12 years of your life. So do you speak Bamba? I do just speak Bamba. Lozi, English, French, friends? [00:05:33] Speaker B: Just a bit. [00:05:35] Speaker C: Okay. [00:05:36] Speaker B: You know, just the basics count. Then I'm also trying with nyanja. [00:05:40] Speaker A: Okay. So majority of your life, maybe in the adulthood, has been Lusaka. [00:05:45] Speaker B: Yes. [00:05:46] Speaker A: Okay. And tell me about your high school. Like what kind of student. I always want to know what kind of a student my guest was. [00:05:55] Speaker C: Yes. [00:05:56] Speaker A: The real story. [00:05:57] Speaker B: The real story. Okay. [00:05:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:59] Speaker B: I'm going to give you a backstory. [00:06:00] Speaker A: Okay. [00:06:01] Speaker B: Right. So when I was in primary school, I think I was in first, second grade at Jack Christian Academy. And I think I was one of those kids who was a slow writer, always getting Sick. So, like, some of the kids would make fun of me. And so I got to a point where I was just tired of being made fun of. And so every time after school and I would go back home, I stopped watching tv, I would lock myself in my room, study, practice how to write faster and try to learn the names of ministers. [00:06:34] Speaker A: Yes. [00:06:35] Speaker B: Names of presidents. Just study ahead. And then with time, I became one of the smartest kids in class. So when I became one of those smart kids, I would help the ones that were slow writers just like me or couldn't understand. And that was primary. So I guess from that it's like it sort of became who I was or who I am when it comes to school. Very ambitious. Always wants to either pass number one or just get those A's. And it's something that I have carried through even through high school. I think in high school I was actually awarded student of the year. [00:07:11] Speaker C: Really? [00:07:12] Speaker B: Yes. [00:07:12] Speaker A: Have you ever failed a course or subject? [00:07:15] Speaker B: No, I'm actually in my third year now. [00:07:18] Speaker C: Okay. [00:07:18] Speaker B: And I'm hoping. I don't feel now, but in secondary [00:07:21] Speaker A: school, like, did you flank a test? [00:07:25] Speaker B: No. So maybe. [00:07:28] Speaker A: Can I rephrase? Have you gotten a grade that you were not happy about? [00:07:33] Speaker B: Probably, yes. I think it's usually with the. When there's someone who's gotten higher than you, it's like, okay, what did they do that I didn't do? But I think usually, because, you know, in schools we have the middle exams and the finals. Okay. So for me, I've always looked at the mids as okay. I'm trying to gauge myself if I'm understanding. And so I'm going to let myself feel this one if I have to, because I'm trying final, whether I've understood, but the final, I have to do the thing. [00:08:04] Speaker A: Okay. [00:08:04] Speaker B: Yes. [00:08:05] Speaker A: So what's your secret to getting high grades? [00:08:08] Speaker B: My secret to getting high grades? [00:08:10] Speaker A: How do you study? Somebody last week was asking me as a student, say, how do people who get B's or A's, how do they start? What's the secret? What is the secret? [00:08:24] Speaker B: I think first you need to know yourself. Are you a fast learner? Are you a slow learner? Because for me personally, if I attend a class, right, and I've understood what the class is about, there's no need for me to study. I can just study like whenever I feel like, or if I never understood something, then I'll have to follow the lecture. [00:08:44] Speaker A: Okay. [00:08:45] Speaker B: And I'm somebody who likes to move with the lecture or move with the Teachers, it's either I'm ahead of them or I'm with them. [00:08:53] Speaker A: Okay. [00:08:53] Speaker B: So I don't give myself space to catch up. [00:08:56] Speaker A: So you don't play catch up? [00:08:57] Speaker B: I don't play catch up. I. I don't be one of those last minute people. The Suicide Squad. [00:09:04] Speaker A: That's what Muflerandas used to. Oh, I'm sure you. Okay. So that's your secret. [00:09:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:12] Speaker A: So to somebody who's struggling, you would say, move with a teacher or be ahead of them. [00:09:16] Speaker B: Yes. [00:09:16] Speaker A: And go to them to help you. [00:09:18] Speaker B: Yes. A lot of students are afraid of asking questions. And I think. And they have this notion that no teachers or lecturers favor certain students, but it's not. It's not even that way. I think at the start of university, I also thought of it that way because it's a huge transition from high school to university. But it's like I had to earn my place into the. Oh, no, she's one of the favorites of the lecture because I interact with them. I'm not afraid to ask questions in class. I'm not afraid to be wrong because I'd rather be wrong in class than be wrong in an exam. [00:09:54] Speaker A: Okay, that's a good one. That's a good one. Be wrong in class, but not. [00:09:59] Speaker B: Not in the exam. [00:10:00] Speaker A: In the exam. Okay. Your gap year, what did you spend it doing? [00:10:06] Speaker B: Yeah, so my gap year, I spent it trying to discover myself. I didn't. My parents didn't understand that. They wanted me to go straight into university. And I was like, no, I need to know who I am before I get into university. Obviously, before I get into law school, I need to know who is session. Because I don't want my life to just be one thing. I believe I. I like this phrase. I am a Joseph because I wear a coat of many colors. I don't subject myself to 1. [00:10:43] Speaker A: 1. Okay. [00:10:44] Speaker B: Yes. So I wanted to discover myself. And one thing I knew about myself is that I definitely wanted to speak up for people or speak out for people. I just didn't know how or in what capacity or in what area. So in my gap year, I spent my time volunteering, I spent my time attending conferences, things like that. Just any small, small thing that I hear, okay, you'll find me there. [00:11:08] Speaker A: But so did you find yourself? [00:11:10] Speaker B: I did myself. Along the way, I think I got to understand myself more. I think I'm still finding myself, at least still getting to know myself. But I did find something that fits for me in the advocacy space. Advocacy is not something I ever thought of. But during that time, I found it. And obviously advocacy is wide. A lot of people want to do different things. Feminism, women's right, menstrual health, education, education, you know, SDGs. And for me, I found mental health. And yeah, it just fits. [00:11:43] Speaker A: So the mental health came in. In the gap year. [00:11:46] Speaker B: In the gap year. [00:11:47] Speaker A: Okay. When did you then actualize to say okay? For me, this is it? And I'm not turning back. [00:11:54] Speaker B: I think was when I was volunteering under Tandua Mental Health foundation and I was working under Namatama Lovinda, the mental health activist at the time. So any small thing dealing with mental health should invite me or I would follow her. So I saw what she was doing, the work that she was doing, and the impact it was making. And I got to realize these are actually real issues because initially I didn't even know that what people go through can be phrased as mental health. It's something that I got to know in my gap year that mental health is mental health. [00:12:34] Speaker C: Right. [00:12:34] Speaker B: Because a lot of people go through it, but they don't have a name for it. And I finally found a name for it and, you know, I started to fall in love with it at that point. And then in my first year, in my first year, was it my first year. In my first year, second year actually of university, I tried to venture into the menstrual health advocacy. And for some reason it just didn't fit. Like, I loved it. I know I'm a young woman, but you need to know where you flourish in. Like, I, I can always support women in their advocacy space, but I am humble enough to know I won't thrive in that space. And maybe I'm not the right voice for it. [00:13:16] Speaker A: Okay. [00:13:17] Speaker B: So I have to let people who are the right voice for it, who have the right is it vigor for it, do their thing. And then I had to go back to mental health because for some reason it's always been in the back of my mind. Even I'm trying out other advocacy things. So at the end of my second year, that's when I was like, you know what? Mental health is the thing. I'd say at the end of last year, that's what I was like. I, it looks like this is my niche. Like, there's no going back, there's no trying anything else. There's no longer trying to find myself in the advocacy space. This is it. [00:13:55] Speaker A: Okay? You stand out as one person who wants to promote support seeking services. That's what you want to. Is There any specific incidents that you've. You experienced personally or through your work, any encounter that made you narrow it down to promoting people, accessing support in whatever form or shape? [00:14:21] Speaker B: I think at a personal level, especially when I started to give a name to what people go through or to what I've gone through and calling it mental health. And I. There was a point, I think I needed to really talk to someone about it because I think I was old enough to actually go to the clinic or to the hospital by then, or to sign a paper or a document. And so I wanted to go there on my own. And the fees were quite expensive. And I was like, I can't. I can't pay this. Right. But it's like, for somebody who comes from a family like mine, it's like, okay, we understand you can't pay it at a personal level, but you have parents who can provide for that. And then I started to think, what of people that don't have. [00:15:07] Speaker A: Don't have. Okay. Are you the only child? [00:15:09] Speaker B: No. [00:15:10] Speaker A: Okay. [00:15:12] Speaker B: I look like the only child? [00:15:13] Speaker A: No, no, no, no. I'm just asking because. Because I wanted to find out. Because coming from family like mine. [00:15:17] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. So I started to wonder a lot of people that do not have the privilege that I have. Right. And I have. I. When I started, right, in 2023, it was just small, small things. But it's like the feedback was so much. A lot of people would reach out and they would be asking me questions about where they can go. Some would want to talk to me, but it's like, I'm not a certified therapist. [00:15:40] Speaker C: Okay. [00:15:41] Speaker B: And I wish I could recommend someone to you, but I don't even know any that's within your tax brackets. So it's like, how can I help you? So that's. I think from that, the mental health advocacy in me just started to grow. Like, I had to sit down sometimes. My mom wouldn't understand, why is this girl in her room? What is she even writing? But it's like, I'm sitting down, I'm thinking, how can I help these people? Yeah, what can I do? Or where can I find a place that's affordable for these people that keep coming? Yes. [00:16:09] Speaker A: Okay. You love to connect people with professionals. [00:16:13] Speaker B: Yes. [00:16:13] Speaker A: Do you intend to become the professional that people can go to? [00:16:19] Speaker B: Yes. At some point in life, I do. [00:16:22] Speaker A: Okay. [00:16:22] Speaker B: Yes. [00:16:24] Speaker A: What's your mental health story? Personally? Personally, you said you needed to talk to somebody. You can. You can talk to us now. [00:16:31] Speaker B: Do we have to go there? Okay. [00:16:33] Speaker A: Yes. [00:16:34] Speaker B: Personally, you know I prepared for all the professional things you would ask me. [00:16:39] Speaker A: It's a podcast. [00:16:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. So I think my mental health story, I think it's more of a girl child kind of story, you know, because growing up and obviously the Christian aspect. So growing up, I've grown up in a Christian household. And obviously, as a young girl who's going to school, there are certain things I learned at school about very inspirational women. And I come back home, obviously, because of the cultural aspect of it, a boy and a girl are treated differently in the household. So I had so many questions about that. And sometimes, you know, people just go through things. You become a teenager and obviously your emotions. Puberty hits and things like that. So it's like it. It adds to what is already going on at home. [00:17:32] Speaker A: Okay. Did you get support during your puberty period in terms of anybody talking to you? Did you. Because there's that African culture back in the day, but in the modern day, did you find. Because there are people who find it hard during that period. It's different for every person. [00:17:51] Speaker B: I believe I'm one of those children who they never had to sit down with to talk to about such things because I was such a good girl. Like, I think there was this one time my dad was actually scolding me because I think one of my shoes for school was, like, spoiled, like, the down part. [00:18:08] Speaker A: And you never said. [00:18:09] Speaker B: And I never said anything. I just kept on going to school like that. Until this one time, I don't know what he was even doing or looking for. And he found it, and he was quoting me. Why didn't you tell me? Why this? Why that? Yeah. So I was one of those kids that they never had to worry about. [00:18:24] Speaker A: Okay. [00:18:25] Speaker B: Because I usually just keep to myself. Because, you know, with the African setting, I think a lot everybody goes through stress, everybody goes through mental health challenges. But because people don't have a name for it and they don't recognize it, they don't recognize that them going through certain things affects the people around them, especially the children in the house. So there were some. So at a very young age, I learned to keep to myself. Like, of course, I'm very outgoing. I can talk a lot sometimes, but it's like I just learned to keep certain thoughts to myself. And I think for me, that's what contributed to my mental health deteriorating. Because it gets to a point, you know, you can't always keep things to yourself. And so because it got to a point, I wanted to see someone. [00:19:12] Speaker A: Okay. [00:19:13] Speaker B: Right. But it's like, I Couldn't really see them without my parents input. [00:19:18] Speaker A: Ah, okay. And they would want to know why do you want to see exactly this much? [00:19:23] Speaker B: Exactly. And it's like I was afraid because, you know, in a lot of Zambian and African households like Gen Z make, we make a lot of memes about it online. But it's like a serious issue, you know, because sometimes you'd like to talk to your parents but like how sure are you they going to understand? Because the first thought of parents or older people is that okay, you don't have bills to pay, so what exactly [00:19:51] Speaker A: what are you stressing for? You don't pay rent, you don't pay power, you don't pay for water. [00:19:57] Speaker B: Exactly. But it's like at the end of the day we are all doing life and by virtue of the fact that we are all doing life, we are all bound to be affected by something. I go to school, I meet people, someone might have bullied me. I'm not saying I was. [00:20:11] Speaker A: Why are you the bully? [00:20:14] Speaker B: I think at some point I was sort of bullied, like obviously when I started in first grade for me to be the girl that I am ambitious and I think somewhere around high school as well. But it's like I learned to obvious. As I said, I keep to myself a lot. So it's like some people don't even see that sensitive side of, of me, you know. That's why sometimes I like to say maybe the people online seem more of me than the people that actually meet me. Because it's like online I can be who I want to be. I can be my true self. [00:20:48] Speaker A: You just want to be what people want people to see. [00:20:51] Speaker B: Yeah, but especially with the mental health advocacy aspect, in order for you to advocate for something, it's very easy for people to follow it or for people to be impacted by it when they can actually relate. So it's like it's very easy for me to say I'm a sensitive girl online than it is for me to say it when I meet someone and say, oh no, I'm a very sensitive emotional girl. [00:21:14] Speaker A: But yes, okay, Mental health and women, the 2,000 plus cases that were cited by Chinama. What's your take on that in relation to the work that you do? [00:21:33] Speaker B: My take on it is that I think so many times we see mental health as just an emotional thing. No, it's just. No, you're allowed to cry. But I definitely think it's a social issue. That's why I advocate for it very much. How is it a social Issue. Because when you look at women, the women that are going for the help that they need at some point, there were young girls in households where they were raised to be. It's like from the get go, you're raised to be something for a Prince Charming out there. You're not really raised for yourself. So it gets to. So when you get there and you think you found your Prince Charming, it's like for you, you've arrived, right? But then once you think you've arrived and that person disappoints you, when all your life, all they've ever done for you is prepare you to be ready for a man, it gets to you, okay, as a woman, right? So when it gets to you, you don't know what else to do because that's all you know in life. That's like the goal for most young women out here, okay? Because at tender ages, such as seven, you're being told if you don't sweep the house, if you look at how you're sweeping the house, you'll be chased from marriage. So it's like, you know, young girls grow up with that. And now they become these women that, you know, have dedicated their lives to, let's say, a marriage, a relationship, a man. And now they are broken when that disappoints them. [00:23:03] Speaker A: But, oh, talking about that, are all cases among the 2,000, those that were highlighted all about a man? Or it could be that women are making wrong decisions. [00:23:18] Speaker B: Okay, that's, that's a very good. [00:23:22] Speaker A: Adding to that, statistics in Zambia in southern Africa, by the way, show that women in Zambia drink more than men. So is it still revolving back to the men? [00:23:36] Speaker B: No, it's not revolving to the men. It's revoked. It's ostas from the upbringing. It's a cultural thing. The foundation, okay? The foundation is what we are talking about. We are not saying it's the man's fault that the woman is going through this. We are saying it's culture's fault that women are being raised this way. This is why, for me, I think, because obviously there's this whole aspect of don't trust men. Each day takes some time to hate men. But I think for young women and older women, we should take the time to learn from men, right? Learn from men's upbringing. Because from what we've seen, or at least a lot of men put themselves first. I'm not saying it in the household aspect where I know a man is a provider and things like that, but I'm saying it in a. If a Man sees something that doesn't serve him, most of the times he's going to walk away and do what's best for him. But women are taught to stay. Yes, but like men, it's in the emotional kind of aspect, but women, it's in the tolerable kind of aspect. Like you have to tolerate certain behavior. Okay, Right. But it's like for most men, they can always walk away. They have that. They have the grace to do that. [00:24:56] Speaker A: Okay. Why are women drinking more than men? [00:24:59] Speaker B: Why are women drinking more than men? That's a very good question. I wouldn't want to lie. I wouldn't want to lie. [00:25:05] Speaker A: What? You know. [00:25:07] Speaker B: You know, I think substance abuse overall is just. There's the same answer for it. If people had better ways of solving their issues, they would. Right. But like, they find themselves in situations where they don't have better ways of solving that issue. [00:25:23] Speaker A: Hence. [00:25:24] Speaker B: Yes. Because sometimes it's, you know, I guess there's a certain kind of high with not only alcohol, but with drugs in general that people get. And that kind of high, like, makes them forget their issues even for a bit, because they know these issues are not going away anytime soon. I don't have the money to solve this problem. I don't have whatever it is that is needed to solve this problem. So I just need a break before this problem itself kills me. Right. And so if they had healthier ways of coping like the therapy we are talking about, then that wouldn't be an issue. But obviously therapy doesn't give you the high that alcohol does. But let's say Fruticana gave you that kind of high and it didn't affect your liver. You'd obviously take it. [00:26:08] Speaker A: You would go there. [00:26:09] Speaker B: Yes, you'd go there because it's like, okay, you know, it's going to. It's going to make me feel better for a bit, you know, but then I'll get back to normal and no part of my body is going to be affected. So people just lack. They don't know the better recourse. They don't have a better recourse. They don't have a better place to go to. And that's why they run to alcohol. [00:26:32] Speaker A: Okay, Tusaluna. What does that mean? [00:26:36] Speaker B: It means help us in Lozi. [00:26:38] Speaker A: Okay, how do you pronounce it? Okay. [00:26:45] Speaker B: When my mom watches this. [00:26:47] Speaker A: Yeah. So to salon, which means help us. [00:26:50] Speaker B: Yes. [00:26:51] Speaker A: It's a good. I liked. I like the. The whole phrasing and all. Yeah. To salon. So when we look at. To salon, as people are Crying for help. Okay. [00:27:03] Speaker B: Yes. [00:27:06] Speaker A: How easy is it for a Zambian man or woman to access help? [00:27:16] Speaker B: It's not. I'm not going to lie, it's not easy. Why? Because therapy is expensive. [00:27:28] Speaker A: Really? [00:27:28] Speaker B: It is. [00:27:30] Speaker A: Okay. [00:27:30] Speaker B: There are places where it's 500 quarter per session. Can the ordinary Zambian afford that per session? [00:27:36] Speaker A: And the session I'm taking, maybe. How long is it? An hour. [00:27:39] Speaker B: An hour too. Somewhere there. [00:27:41] Speaker A: Okay. [00:27:42] Speaker B: Yes. And then. And that's the 501 is maybe one of the cheaper ones, actually, because they are those for 1,000, 2,000 per session. Exactly. [00:27:54] Speaker A: Okay. [00:27:54] Speaker B: And then apart from that, the fact that. And I understand why it's expensive, right? Because, you know, we'll have a lot of people saying, no, it's expensive, it's expensive. But it's like. Do you understand why it's expensive? In Zambia, we do not have a lot of mental health professionals. [00:28:10] Speaker A: I see. [00:28:11] Speaker B: And because we have a little. A limited number of mental health professionals, they need to make a living, Right. And because they need to make a living, they have to make it expensive. Now, if we had therapists, the number, like the number of teachers that we have in the country, you know, that would be a different story. So for me, I always say this, like in every room I go into, because I'm hoping this message reaches the government or the president himself before I reach him. By the time I'm in a room with him, even if I'm just giving five minutes, I need to have this conversation. [00:28:48] Speaker A: One thing I know about the president, he loves education. And you're on the education podcast. You can look in that camera and send the message to him. [00:28:56] Speaker B: I am sending a message right now. So because of the fact that we have a limited number of mental health professionals, why don't we open more courses in universities that accommodate this. This profession so that even as they graduate, there's a very large number. And that large number can be used across the country. The same way we are going to employ teachers and say, no, you go to Mazabuka, you go to Nangombo. That's how we are going to do it with therapists. You to Mazabuka, you go to Shangonbo. And there it's widespread. But I also understand that because of the financial capacity of the country and a lot of things that it wants to invest in, especially with what's going on with the. [00:29:43] Speaker C: It's. [00:29:44] Speaker B: It's the HIV aid that has been. [00:29:46] Speaker A: Yes. [00:29:47] Speaker B: The prep aid that has been, you know, withdrawn. I understand the financial effects this will have on us as a country. So because we cannot start building Chinamas in each and every district or in each and every city, let us make sure we have therapists in each and every clinic, in each and every hospital. So someone from Shangonbo doesn't have to come all the way to Chinama just to see a therapist. [00:30:12] Speaker A: Who's the message going to? [00:30:14] Speaker B: The message is going to, firstly, the people, because it starts with us. The more we talk about it, the more government looks into it. Secondly, the people in power, the minister, the members of parliament, bring it up in parliament. Thirdly, and lastly, the president himself. [00:30:35] Speaker A: To salon. Yes, yes, brilliantly put. One, therapy is expensive. Access to therapy is expensive. Do we have. I know, like in the legal space there's legal aid, like pro bono. The people that are assigned to do pro bono cases. Do we have those services currently where somebody can go to physically? I know of, like child helpline, those that you call. Yes, but we have physical spaces where you have to go to, especially for us adults. [00:31:08] Speaker B: You can always go to China, at least. One thing I know about it is that it's, you know, it's a government institution. Right. And from the research that I've done, it's cheaper. It's way cheaper. Right. I think if I'm not mistaken, last year or some years back it was 50 quarter. Yes. Now it's 100 quarter, low cost. [00:31:29] Speaker A: Okay? [00:31:30] Speaker B: Yes. So you can just save up a hundred quarter and go there for a therapy session. [00:31:35] Speaker A: How important is therapy? [00:31:37] Speaker B: It's very important. Because, you know, things that we've been through shape us. Sometimes we don't realize it, but the more you go through something, it just does something to your mind that makes you want to protect yourself. And it's because of that you won't understand why the term that young people are using these days, why certain people are being nonchalant, why someone seems selfish, why someone seems like they don't enjoy life, why someone is being suicidal. You wouldn't understand that because they ignored it from the start. They saw the issue and they said, you know, somebody was actually from telling me this, like just today, this morning, okay? Because I think we take it too lightly. Everybody's just going to tell you it's just life. Yes, but life is for living. And how am I supposed to live if I want to die? And so to prevent such a thing from happening, we need to sit down and we need to be able to recognize things that need help early. And people aren't able to recognize that they need help early because they're not taught in schools like we are taught when it comes to cholera or malaria. At least for malaria we know. Okay, no, put up a mosquito in it, Mosquito repellent. There's no, there's nothing like that for mental health in schools. In schools they'll just say, okay, the definition of mental health, a definition of physical health. And then they go deeper into physical health. That's. And it's very important because of, it affects how you live. Right. Your social well being, your emotional, your psychological. Right. Sometimes they say, no, no, no, no, that's not the case. They've just gone through certain things that have sort of changed the, the way their mind works. Right. And that's why they need the necessary help. [00:33:37] Speaker A: Okay. When you look at mental health, there is that mental health spectrum also where you start. With good mental health, you are thriving, you, you can sleep well. Then you start moving into a poor one until you get to severe. That's when you have a condition, you can't function properly. Where are we getting it wrong with diagnosis? [00:34:01] Speaker B: Diagnosis? You know, again, it gets to, you know, a lot of people are self diagnosing these days. No, I have adhd. Yes and no. I have bipolar disorder. And it's like, it's like I wake up one day and just say I have cancer. You see how weird that sounds? And so it's, it's not right. But again, it's sort of understandable because it's like they are going through something and so they, they ask Google and Google give them the closest thing to whatever it is that they're going through. Why would they ask Google? Because if they had to go to a therapist, they don't have the kind of money to be diagnosed by that therapist. But if it was wide, you know, like, you know, for physical health and how we are advised. No, always go for a checkup here and there's, we should also advise for mental checkups. Right. [00:34:58] Speaker A: Because recommend. [00:35:00] Speaker B: Yes. Like you need to go, you know, see someone. [00:35:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:03] Speaker B: Even if it's just one session and then they'll tell you, okay, you know, after this session I can tell you're doing really well. There's really no problem. Or after that session, you know, okay, you know, there's something the therapist will tell you, there's something here and there that you can sort out and this, this and that. Or the therapist will tell you, okay, this is really bad, we need to give him educations. This, this, this and that, you know, but again, it's, it's a social thing, you know, and I will really emphasize on this because it's more than just how am I feeling today? Am I happy, am I sad, am I going to cry? It's more than that because even in the workspace. Right. Who are we dealing with? Human beings who are working. Human beings. [00:35:47] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:35:48] Speaker B: And by virtue of the fact that they are human beings, they are going through things in life because mental health is a human experience. Right. And so if they're going through things in life, it's going to be very difficult for them to be productive in the workspace. And if they do not have a recourse for that, it affects the productivity of the company. And if it affects the productivity of the company, and there are a lot more companies in Zambia, it affects the [00:36:13] Speaker A: productivity of the nation, the country at large. [00:36:15] Speaker B: Yes. So that's. [00:36:19] Speaker A: I, I like that. Where do you send a person? Church or therapy? [00:36:29] Speaker B: That's a good question. That's a good question. [00:36:32] Speaker C: Yes. [00:36:35] Speaker B: Therapy [00:36:38] Speaker A: over church. [00:36:40] Speaker B: So let me, let me explain. So people go through church hurt. And I think in order for people to be able, like, you know, there are people that go to, to church or to church members and ask, oh, no, what can I do here and there. And they are told, no, I just trust God. [00:37:02] Speaker A: Pray to God. [00:37:03] Speaker B: Just pray to God. I'm not, I'm not denying the power of prayer. I'm a Christian myself. I'm not denying the existence of God. But you know, even when you pray for someone, you still take them to the hospital and you're going to pray for them as they're in the hospital, even when they are the ones in the condition. [00:37:24] Speaker A: Is that not lack of faith? [00:37:26] Speaker B: I don't go into the hospital. Lack of faith. [00:37:29] Speaker A: I've prayed for you and I said, you are healed. [00:37:32] Speaker B: No, no, I do not think it's lack of faith. What example can I give in the Bible? What example can I give in the Bible of someone actually going to be. You know what? I'm going to give the example of Job. He didn't go to any hospital. Right. I've just forgotten the exact verse. Right. But there's a verse that, where God recognizes that Job is a human being and he gives Job time to go through what he's going through. So it's like, okay, I understand that this hurts, cry. So me feeling, what I'm feeling is not a lack of faith or a lack of belief. By virtue of the fact that I am a human being, I'm bound to feel a certain way about certain things. And sometimes I need to sit with my Emotions before I can stand up and say, okay, now let's be logical about this. That's why even Job's friends, when they came, they didn't just come and start praying. Hey, in tongues. [00:38:36] Speaker A: You are quiet. [00:38:37] Speaker B: They sat down with him quietly for days. They just sat down there with him in the condition that he was in. And sometimes that's what therapy looks like. Sometimes that's what mental health support looks like. [00:38:51] Speaker A: Just being close proximity around, just being [00:38:54] Speaker B: there for a friend. Sometimes you don't even need to talk about it. You just need to sit there. They just need to know that you are there and they are not alone. [00:39:05] Speaker A: That's a good one. [00:39:06] Speaker B: Yes. [00:39:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Because most of the times we just want to talk about me. But being around also helps. So you would go for therapy. There are people who say therapy is just a waste of money. When you can go to church and you come back feeling good. What's your take on that? [00:39:28] Speaker B: My take is I think there's a lot of inner work that needs to be done, and therapy works with that in inside work that you need to do on your own. At the end of the day, we need to understand that, you know, we're not saying everybody should go for therapy, but if I go for therapy once in a while, when you see that you have an issue. [00:39:49] Speaker A: Okay. [00:39:50] Speaker B: It's not like when you're healthy, you go to hospital to say, but you know what I'm saying? So sometimes there are certain things, I think the church. The churches have different doctrines. Right. And sometimes you might not agree with them because you read the Bible and you say, okay, this is what. This is the kind of God that I know, a loving God, a forgiving God. And you go to church because these days there's a lot of church hurt, and the church isn't giving you that. And so because you didn't even go there, some people don't even go to church because they believe in God. Right. Some people go to church because they're looking for a family. [00:40:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:30] Speaker B: But it's like if that family isn't conducive enough, it starts to affect you inside and you start to question yourself. [00:40:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:38] Speaker B: About who you are. [00:40:40] Speaker A: People at church are not perfect. That's why they're there. [00:40:42] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. So it's like you're in an environment that questions you about who you are. That's why I would advise you go for therapy, because it's like there's a lot of inner work that you need to do in order for you to understand yourself. Such even when you're in spaces like that, you know, I am here for God and God only if I'm going to make a family along the way, that's great. And whatever it is that they're going to do, whatever, however they're going to hurt me, won't affect how I see myself as a person and the journey that I'm on. [00:41:11] Speaker A: Okay, what are the misconceptions about mental health advocacy or just. Yeah, advocacy. [00:41:19] Speaker B: And also mental health advocacy in general. [00:41:23] Speaker A: Are you people who are doing the advocates, are you looking for attention? Like, what are the misconceptions about that? [00:41:30] Speaker B: The misconceptions about it. So how much do you make? Okay, yeah. [00:41:37] Speaker A: So it's a money spinner. [00:41:39] Speaker B: Yes. Like, but is it not about money for advocacy? If you are looking to be an advocate to earn money, you're definitely in the wrong space. Because advocacy as it is, this is what, this has been declared the year of volunteers. Yes, exactly. It's like volunteering to give back to the community. Right. So if you are giving back to the community, trust me, you're doing it free of charge. But if people along the way say, we see what you're doing and would like to appreciate you for what you're doing, then you get money. It's not like you're getting paid for it. It's just people appreciating you. Right. This is the year of volunteering. So there, I think there are three things that they're looking at and one of them is support. Right. So if you're going to be in the advocacy space and someone like that appreciates you in whatever manner it is that they will appreciate you, basically, they're just feeding into what is already being said about volunteers in this particular year. [00:42:41] Speaker A: Okay. [00:42:42] Speaker B: Volunteers deserve to be supported. Right. In order for them to easily give back to the community. But I'll be very honest, right, Starting out, this was just a hard thing. I'm a student. I. I'm hoping to get a job in law. Right. This is, this is something I do out of my heart. It's a passion thing. [00:43:06] Speaker A: So you're not employed by anyone? [00:43:07] Speaker B: I'm not employed by anyone. [00:43:09] Speaker A: Okay, so this is just you picking it up and going flying out? [00:43:13] Speaker B: Yes. It's like the people that wake up and say, you know what, I need to give this to the orphanage. It's just upon my heart. And for us it's, oh, okay. You know, for me it's going to be mental health. Oh. For me it's going to be education. For me it's Going to be women. Right. So if somebody is looking to be in the advocacy space for money, wrong place. Because, you know, in today's day and age. That's why at the beginning I stated that I was humble enough to know that certain spaces went for me and I needed to leave them for people that were more vocal in the area, for people that could do more for the space for women. Right. Because I know I'm a woman myself, but like, by virtue of the fact that I'm a woman, that's a, that's already a testament of women's rights. By virtue of the fact that I'm seated here, that's a testament of women's rights. And I think that's my advocacy. [00:44:03] Speaker C: Okay. [00:44:03] Speaker B: For women or for mental health is something that I'll speak more of. Not that I'll never speak on women, when I can, I will. But when someone like, let's say, elaborates more on such an issue, I'll share it because she's, she's articulated it in a manner that I couldn't have thought of articulating it in. [00:44:24] Speaker A: Okay. [00:44:25] Speaker B: And she's so right about it. [00:44:26] Speaker A: Okay. Talking about the person you've mentioned, I've seen some of the works online and all that. The beautiful thing about Zambian social media is everybody has. Is an expert. So I saw, and I'll paraphrase, I saw a comment by. It was a guy, of course, because of the name, who was saying that this mental health. And okay, I went and looked them up to look at the seemingly elderly. They saying this mental health thing is just an agenda from the West. That. And the argument is this. And I want. Because you're a lawyer now, let's debate. So I'll play the devil's advocate. [00:45:11] Speaker B: Let's go band for band. [00:45:12] Speaker A: Yes. So this mental health advocates that you're promoting is just an agenda from the west to make you young people very lazy. When you just face a small challenge, you even have a name for everything. Your failure to face challenges is. I'm in touch. [00:45:33] Speaker C: Is it? [00:45:33] Speaker A: I'm in touch with my feelings. I'm stressed. So if we look at this attitude that you young people have, how are you going to lead a country in a global community when every little small thing has a diagnosis under the spectrum? [00:45:52] Speaker B: First thing, it is not a Western thing. As I stated at the beginning, it's a social issue and it's very much rooted in culture. Right. This is not the first thing that we've got, a Western thing. Houses have been called Western things. Our Dress code has been called a western culture. Right? Because if everything was Western, I, we, we might as well go back to how we used to dress back in the day. By virtue of the fact that we are human beings the way people in the west are human beings. We are also human beings. The only thing that makes us different is the melanin one and where we live. But at the end of the day our human experiences are bound to affect us one way or another. Secondly, I understand the worry of today. Young people have a lot to say about mental health. It promotes laziness. But you know, there, there's a line somewhere. The only reason why a lot of people are hearing about mental health today is because a name has finally been given to an issue they didn't know had a name. [00:47:03] Speaker A: Okay. [00:47:04] Speaker B: And because of the, the days that we live in, you know, we are in the day and age of social media. So obviously it's going to be all over. It's not that it never existed back then. It did, it just didn't have a name. Today's people are not the first to commit suicide. People back in the day did it too. People of today are not the first to say I don't know, I'm just going through something. Back in the day they did through. The only difference is back in the day they didn't know what to call it. They didn't have a name for it, they didn't even have resources for it or they didn't know where to go to ask about this. Because how do you address something you have no knowledge on, but today people have knowledge on it. Right? Although there's some propaganda here and there, misinformation here and there. Because you know, people don't really go to the right people, the professionals, right? That's why we find that there's a lot of oh no, me, I'm going through this, me, I'm going through that. But obviously there's a line. It's bound to criticism and misuse because of this social media. But at the end of the day it is a real issue. [00:48:15] Speaker A: But his argument is that what you don't know doesn't, can't kill you. But so now that we know that there is this, this, this, this, this condition you are bound for in the trap where you now start self diagnizing like you mentioned, you said, I think I have that. And out of that fear grips in. So how do we prevent that? Because from, if auto summarize this is just a scam as well as global warming. This is his, this was his. I remember that phrase. This is the same thing as global warming. They just bought it so that they could control the narrative. [00:48:54] Speaker B: You know, a very funny example would be before we started using notes money, we were very happy in our hearts. But look at us today. Everybody wants a luxurious house, right? Everybody would do anything and everything to have a luxurious house. And it's like, it's not a bad thing. You know, it's just people being ambitious. It's just people getting to know that oh, there's actually a better way of living. Right? But okay, no, maybe better way of living isn't the right way to put it. Let's say there's actually another way of living and maybe that's what, that's the kind of way I like. That's what I prefer. Yeah, right. And that's okay. And that's also the thing with today's age. Are we going to say the same thing about cancer? Africa didn't have a lot of diseases before we were colonized. Zambia itself, we didn't have a lot of diseases before we colonized. We can read it in the history books. But when we were a lot of diseases, we started to know about them. Now can't we say the same about them? Can't we say that because we know about them now, it's very easy for us to get them. You see? Yeah, I see. [00:50:10] Speaker A: I see, I see. I wish that gentleman went here to listen. I like, I like, I like your, your argument. So what do you then respond to somebody who feels that young people are abusing this mental health thing? Your boss tells you what's this? And you went to, what should you say? [00:50:37] Speaker B: I'm at Unilas and you went to universe for this. [00:50:40] Speaker A: Chops your jokers then throws vapors at you. Okay, Then they hear that, no, I need, I need a therapist. So for people who are saying young people are abusing this mental health advocacy and message and awareness, what do you have to say? Are some quarters of the society in your age bracket abusing this as are using it in, in a negative way? [00:51:09] Speaker B: Definitely. Because one thing I have to note right before I even answer that question is that when it comes to mental health there are I think three aspects. One is genetics. Some people it's inherited. Right. Secondly, some people life just happens. And thirdly, some of these things are self inflicted. You go through certain situations because it's a consequence of your own actions. Yes. Stressed you have anxiety because you chose to lead a lifestyle that is not yours. So there are those three Things. Right. So I think we need to identify which category who falls under. And if you fall under the category of okay, no, this is a consequence of your own actions, maybe it is time we started having more conversations around people's actions. [00:51:57] Speaker A: Owning up. [00:51:58] Speaker B: Yes. [00:51:59] Speaker A: I'm not blaming everyone else without blame everyone else, but not themselves. [00:52:03] Speaker B: Yes. Because in the news, not so this very month, actually, they stated that a lot of mental health cases rising because people are in debt. Right. So you see why I'm saying it's a social issue. [00:52:17] Speaker A: Yes. [00:52:17] Speaker B: Right. Because you're in debt, you're going to mental health illnesses. And I think it's time we started having conversations around financial literacy. These things are very much interconnected because everything that you do, everything that you touch as a human being affects you either positively or negatively. And I'll stress on education and awareness. We might think a lot of people know about this or a lot of people understand it, but they don't. And you can tell from how people respond to it and from how people talk about it. The self diagnosing. They know. I'm just emotional without trying to understand how or why or where you can go. If we had more places to go to more facilities that offered mental health support, people wouldn't be self diagnosing. [00:53:08] Speaker A: Okay. [00:53:09] Speaker B: People would be going. If it was as open as a government hospital where I can go and check if I have malaria before I drink the wrong kind of medicine would be very easy for me to know. Okay. I'm actually, I actually don't have ADHD here. I'm just, you know, somebody that easily loses focus because I just want to. Or I'm not somebody who has ocd. I just like living in a clean environment. [00:53:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:34] Speaker B: You know, but like how they know that if the therapy isn't accessible and affordable. Someone in Shangombo doesn't even know what mental health is. [00:53:41] Speaker C: Nope. [00:53:43] Speaker B: But they have a phone and they're on Facebook, but they don't know what it is. And so that's why we need. That's why we have to start. That's why we need to start. Because initially, even with phones back in the day when they were starting, a lot of people are scared of phones in Africa. Right. Or even if they were not scared of them, it's like there was a lot of. A lot of people had something to say about something they knew so little about. And that's it with today. The fact that a lot of people have a lot to say about it that is wrong should show us that they know only a Little about it and not enough because a lot of people are having opinions about something that they only know so little of. [00:54:23] Speaker C: Okay. [00:54:25] Speaker B: And so we need to make sure they know enough so that their opinions are now coming from a knowledgeable point of view. [00:54:32] Speaker A: Okay. [00:54:33] Speaker C: Yes. [00:54:34] Speaker A: If you were to be given a privilege to run a ministry by the president of Zambia, be it in health or education, but I would take you to education because that's what we're here for. What would you want to change or add with regard mental health? [00:54:53] Speaker B: Meeting Health. Oh, we are saying one Education. Education. I think in the syllabus. I would especially. It's in the sciences. Right. Where we have us learning about our bodies. [00:55:09] Speaker A: Yes. [00:55:10] Speaker B: They should add mental health to that. [00:55:12] Speaker A: Okay. [00:55:13] Speaker B: Yes. So if we're going to educate young girls and boys on this cholera is that. Let us teach them about mental health. [00:55:22] Speaker A: Okay. [00:55:23] Speaker B: So that even when they give an opinion, it's from a knowledgeable point of view or even if it's not so knowledgeable, they're asking the right questions. That's what I would do in education. [00:55:35] Speaker A: Education. [00:55:36] Speaker C: Okay. [00:55:36] Speaker A: I know you have something else to say, so let's move out of education. Which other industry or ministry would you like to go? And little, you know, I would have [00:55:47] Speaker B: said health, but there's just something about. [00:55:52] Speaker A: About health. [00:55:54] Speaker B: I would have said health, but you know, when it. There's just something about policies and laws. [00:56:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:03] Speaker B: Because these social issues are shaped by them. How we address them are shaped by these laws that we have. Right. How often do people look at the Mental health Act? Not so often. Do people even know there's a mental health. [00:56:19] Speaker A: So a mental health act? [00:56:21] Speaker B: Yes. [00:56:21] Speaker A: Oh, really? [00:56:22] Speaker B: Yes. [00:56:23] Speaker A: Okay. Would you please don't say we Google it, but when Was it enacted? [00:56:27] Speaker B: 2019. [00:56:28] Speaker A: 2019. [00:56:30] Speaker B: Yes. [00:56:30] Speaker C: Okay. [00:56:32] Speaker A: Does it need any revisions or. [00:56:34] Speaker B: Definitely it does need revisions here and there because obviously, you know, the law changes with time. Right. We are people who are changing with time, who are growing. So obviously sometimes you look at it and you think, no, it doesn't need a revision. But like with when time goes by, you say, oh, can we check it? [00:56:51] Speaker A: 2019. [00:56:53] Speaker B: Yes. [00:56:53] Speaker A: So we do have a mental health act. [00:56:55] Speaker B: Yes, we do have a mental health act. [00:56:57] Speaker A: Okay. [00:56:58] Speaker B: And there certain. And it's because of that there are certain things in the mental health act that need to be implemented. Right. Because you look at it and you see that there are certain guidelines that we are not going through with. For example, like the mental health support systems that are supposed to be accessible for people. We don't have that and it's something we should work on. [00:57:22] Speaker A: So I'm just trying to type mental Health Act 2019. 2019. I never read this. This is for Zambia. [00:57:34] Speaker B: Yes, it's for Zambia. [00:57:39] Speaker A: Well, we do have Mental health act number six of 2019. [00:57:43] Speaker B: Yes. [00:57:45] Speaker A: Okay, I, I need to read this. I know about the Child Code act and all those things, but mental health I have never come across. Okay, thanks for highlighting that. So what would you like to change? Promote more of this? The act. Being made aware. [00:58:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:04] Speaker A: That awareness with people. [00:58:05] Speaker B: Yes, mostly it's. You know, that's why I even started Duna, because on this podcast, all we are doing is having a conversation. Right? Of course. We're educating people. We are creating awareness and a lot of people will be able to identify problems. Talk about. Okay. This is how we can solve this problem. But how often do we see that solution being put into action? That's why I started to Salona Advocacy Meeting Action. [00:58:36] Speaker A: Okay. [00:58:36] Speaker B: It's time we started making these faces more accessible. It's time we started making mental health more affordable. Right. So that's what I plan to achieve. And it's very much related to the act. [00:58:49] Speaker A: Okay. Have you had the privilege to speak at the youth endeavor? [00:58:52] Speaker B: Unfortunately not. [00:58:53] Speaker A: You should. I think you should. You should, you should speak because I, I do know that we are promoting entrepreneurship, which is a good thing, but broken entrepreneurs, meaning they are not going to amount to much that will affect the country. So if we were to put. So let me give you this. There's. There's a youth endeavor. The venue is Mulungushi International Conference Center. And there are four thematic areas that need to be addressed. [00:59:25] Speaker B: Okay. [00:59:26] Speaker A: But I want us to put them in the order of priority. [00:59:28] Speaker B: Okay. [00:59:29] Speaker A: According to you. One, there's mental health. No, no. There's entrepreneurship. [00:59:35] Speaker B: Okay. [00:59:36] Speaker A: Two days agriculture. Three days mental health. And four days education. [00:59:47] Speaker B: You said there's education, agriculture, entrepreneurship, entrepreneurship and mental health. [00:59:55] Speaker A: Mental health. [00:59:56] Speaker B: One, Education. [00:59:59] Speaker A: Yes. One. Education. Okay. [01:00:05] Speaker B: Two, Agriculture. We need to eat. Three. Mental health. [01:00:11] Speaker A: Okay. [01:00:12] Speaker B: Four, Entrepreneurship. [01:00:15] Speaker A: Entrepreneurship. Okay. I was hoping you say what? Mental health. [01:00:21] Speaker B: I'm a very realistic person. [01:00:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Because I had questions for you on that one. Yeah, that's. That's a good order. [01:00:28] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. I'm a very realistic person because, you know, you need to be educated first in order for you to understand it. Right. But again, it's very hard to focus in class if you haven't eaten. [01:00:42] Speaker A: You have to eat. [01:00:43] Speaker B: You have to eat. [01:00:44] Speaker A: Okay. [01:00:45] Speaker B: You have to eat. We don't want situations. [01:00:47] Speaker A: And after you eat, you need to Be in a proper. [01:00:49] Speaker B: Exactly. State of mind. [01:00:51] Speaker A: State of mind. [01:00:52] Speaker B: But then entrepreneurship, I. The reason why I put mental health before entrepreneurship is because business is my pressure. [01:01:03] Speaker A: So have you done a business before? The way business has precious. [01:01:07] Speaker B: It has precious. Obviously I've done like small, small things, but it's like, you know, I have the privilege of having parents that support me. [01:01:16] Speaker A: Okay. [01:01:16] Speaker B: So when I do those things just because I want some extra money and it's like I have nothing to lose at the end of the day. And it's like I have seen the pressure that it gives me when it's just small issues. More people in big business, companies, I think about that and I've had a chance to interact with friends that you know in big businesses and I see the pressure. [01:01:41] Speaker A: There's someone who made a funny statement. It was true to some extent. He said, if you wanted to lose weight and you're given a choice between starting a business or going to the gym, start a business. You're going to lose weight without. Without sweating the way you'd sweat in the gym. But I understood the analogy of what [01:02:04] Speaker B: they're trying to aspect on that. [01:02:06] Speaker A: Yes. [01:02:08] Speaker B: The reason why you would lose so much weight is because you're under pressure, you're stressed. And stress is related to mental health. [01:02:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And appetite. [01:02:18] Speaker B: Going through that. Right. And one of the effects of that obviously is the appetite changes your mood swings. So when you're going through that. Have you ever met people that are going through things and they're gaining weight instead of losing? [01:02:30] Speaker A: Yes, I. I do have. Yeah. It swings both ways. [01:02:33] Speaker B: So it all depends on the, the biology of the person. You either lose weight or gain weight. I'm one of the people that gain when you're stressed. [01:02:43] Speaker C: Yes. [01:02:43] Speaker A: Because you eat too much chocolate. [01:02:45] Speaker B: No, I don't even. I don't even have a huge. [01:02:47] Speaker A: Chocolate is in the sense that when you are stressed, there are people who tend to eat more sweet things. Cups. Because it's comforting to them. [01:02:54] Speaker B: Yeah, unfortunately. [01:02:55] Speaker A: Cake, ice cream, chocolate, Anything sweet. [01:02:58] Speaker B: And I'm not even a sweet tooth. [01:03:00] Speaker A: Really? [01:03:00] Speaker B: Yes. So I, I don't know. But for me, again, like when it's during exams, I have friends complaining. They're like. [01:03:09] Speaker A: Because they're always knocking. [01:03:10] Speaker B: I'm sure that's the thing. I'm not, I don't. I'm not even always snacking. I could have one heavy meal today and I'm set for a day or two. [01:03:19] Speaker A: Okay, we need to wind up. The lesson that I wanted to bring out is this. Do you feel that as a nation we have. Where are we doing much in promoting or raising awareness? Because you are the people that are raising awareness. So you and everybody else, do you think you are doing much? And when I say you, are we doing much as a country? [01:03:47] Speaker B: Yes and no. [01:03:48] Speaker A: Okay. Qualify that. [01:03:51] Speaker B: Yes. In that mental health started being a conversation during COVID because now people had to sit with their emotions. They had nothing to do with. There was no work to distract them. So now they're like, oh, my God, I actually have to address this. And that's why even afterwards, there are a lot of divorce cases after Covid. Yes. Because now you actually have to address whatever it is that you're going through. You can't ignore it. So because of that, because a lot of things were going on during that period now a lot of people wanted to have more conversations around. They started asking questions, why is this happening? Why am I feeling this way? So now people who are professionals had to come in. People who asked more questions were very inquisitive, like me, were like, we need to find out what this is. And now more conversations are being had around it. Right now it's even being talked about on tv. You know, there are reports by. Is that Kalimba? [01:04:51] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [01:04:52] Speaker B: Back in the day, there was nothing like that. No. In that not everybody has social media. There are a lot of people in the rural areas that do not know about this, but are going through it. [01:05:05] Speaker A: You know what I would like to look at? I would like to look at research that post Covid that is wholly centered around mental health. Like good research in the. Just in different areas. Marriages, school dropouts, suicides, business failure. Because everything is internal. I would like to look at research. I don't know if you've come across any of those. I know there are. That's where marriages are concerned. I think they've been skyrocketing. But I would like to look at research and what are the triggers and what are the interventions besides getting therapy? If Covid or another pandemic comes, how do we survive? Because that's what I'm thinking. How are we going to survive if another pandemic comes? [01:05:52] Speaker B: Unfortunately, I haven't seen any research. I'm more of a stats person at the moment. But we can wait for me to do my PhD. [01:05:59] Speaker A: Okay. [01:05:59] Speaker B: Yes. [01:06:00] Speaker A: How soon is that? Okay? [01:06:05] Speaker B: Okay, yes. But I haven't seen any research at the moment, but maybe I will have to look it up. But there have been stats. There have been people talking about this, even professionals talking about it. There's Just a lot of word around it. Because even a lot of people that initially didn't think it was a thing now accept that it is a thing. [01:06:29] Speaker A: Okay. [01:06:29] Speaker B: But you know, it's very easy for you to throw stones at glass houses when you're not in the glass house. That's why a lot of people have a lot to say about mental health saying, no, it's not a real issue until they're the ones in the situation. [01:06:43] Speaker A: I see. [01:06:44] Speaker C: Yes. [01:06:45] Speaker A: Okay. Well, well, well. Is there any last communication that you'd like to. I know you've spoken the president and the country. Is there anything that you feel you would love to send out as a message as an advocate for mental health with regards to support seeking? [01:07:06] Speaker B: Before you look at the substance, look at the person. Because a lot of the times you want to say, but maybe you should start asking yourself, why is this person drinking? Instead of look at what alcohol is doing to you. Yes, I think those are my last words. Look at the person before the substance. [01:07:30] Speaker A: Brilliant. Any questions in the house, [01:07:36] Speaker C: You've been exposed to the angels persons people are getting. I feel like Cubans, your works are good, but the way you handle the problem and African way. Maybe that's why we are not making much obvious as we desire. For me, And that's the biggest problem. I mean, the current generation, the policy vehicle and everything. Let's look at it from the African perspective. How is our culture it we understand our culture and how we behave because culture shapes. [01:08:18] Speaker B: Yes. [01:08:19] Speaker C: So if I'm going to use a solution that was manufactured by Western culture, then won't yield much result. We'll be satisfied with the nature that we are doing. Position. Oh, I'm doing this. But there's more that to do with that. So I feel like it's time to go public. Dream work. Look at it from an Afghan perspective. Go back the times of shock. Those people were stressed. But how Shaka hanging? [01:08:45] Speaker B: No. [01:08:45] Speaker A: Never leave an enemy behind. My favorite line in Shaka. Sorry to catch you, jury member Mfunga. But you get his point, huh? [01:08:56] Speaker B: Yes, I definitely agree with that. Actually, it's something that I've thought about, but obviously because this is when I started, okay, the initiative. There's only so much I can do do with it. But I definitely do understand the African perspective. And because back in the day, women would sit around the fire breeding each other. We had the storytelling aspect, the drums dancing, things like that. It's something that I would like. It's actually on my plan. [01:09:28] Speaker A: But times have changed. [01:09:29] Speaker B: Exactly. But at the End of the day, like there are certain people that still like such things. You know, in order for you to help solve a particular issue such as this one, you need to study people. Right? And you need to study groups, basically. So what would the younger generation like? But okay, these are not the only people going through things. Even though the generation are human beings, you know, how can we help accommodate them in this particular area? We don't just have to sit down and think of just one particular solution. We need to think of something that can accommodate everyone. So I definitely agree with what he has said to some extent. [01:10:05] Speaker A: I don't want to agree with him. [01:10:07] Speaker B: Why not? [01:10:08] Speaker A: So your, your argument is that we need to use African solutions to solve African mental health problems. Okay. And you are said that these guys are using western methods of handling African mental mental health. Could it be that because we haven't done much research that is documented and proven to create frameworks or interventions, hence we cannot use those methods. And maybe they have frameworks that they've built from research and guides on how you do. We have, you said we have few specialists to deal with mental health disorders and all those things. Why? [01:10:57] Speaker B: Because we do not have the education system that accommodates the, the particular area of profession. [01:11:05] Speaker A: So then what then should we use when we don't have what we have? What do we have? [01:11:12] Speaker B: What do we have? We have our culture. There's this thing that I like saying. I didn't even think I would see it here, you know, modern times, not co for extinctive measures, just better ones. Right. Because so many times when we think of culture, a lot of people are thinking of witchcraft or knowledge, you know, all those weird things that we think should not be there right now. But there's a certain way that our people used to deal with things back in the day. Let's not forget we were surviving before we knew the western culture. So what were we doing in that survival? [01:11:45] Speaker A: We like saying culture. Somebody once said to me that in, in fact this generation is the last. And by the way generation was referring to like the last one that was a hint of what how our parents or how our grandparents lived. So are we documenting this? Because culture is being lost over time. So I like the fact that you said we have culture. Are we documenting, is there documentation of how these people lived? And we can now get that and create frameworks around it. Do you think we have that? [01:12:22] Speaker B: I, I don't think I know that we have that. But you know, the only problem with today, you know, if you want to hide something From a black man. Just put it in a book. [01:12:32] Speaker A: Put it in a book. [01:12:33] Speaker B: A lot of people don't want to read. A lot of people don't want to do research. A lot of people want to use chat GPT. [01:12:39] Speaker A: Oh, yes. [01:12:41] Speaker B: So just because what is being spread on social media is more of, you know, the curated content, it doesn't mean we have lost the sources of our culture. Especially I think being in university has taught me a lot. And of course I have the privilege of having certain sources, you know, readily available for me. But when we look at, there are a lot of things that involve research when writing dissertations and things like that, there's Only so much ChatGPT can do for you. Sometimes you have to do it on your own. And it's something a lot of young people today do not want to do. [01:13:19] Speaker A: And they'll get stressed. [01:13:21] Speaker B: Exactly. But there are some individuals like myself, who love our car job, I love our culture. But I also do recognize that there are certain things that shouldn't still be, you know, culture. I still remember this in civic education because I agreed with it very much. [01:13:40] Speaker A: Okay. [01:13:41] Speaker B: Culture is dynamic. [01:13:42] Speaker A: True. [01:13:44] Speaker B: They are changing times. Therefore, we need to find better ways to accommodate culture and the change that we are in. And that's why I said modern times don't go for extensive measures, just better ones. [01:13:56] Speaker A: Better ones, yes. Okay. Well, I look forward to another conversation with, with you in the future when the PhD, when you start your PhD, definitely it will be a great honor. Ladies and gentlemen, there, there is help. Seshemo here has brings the theme Tusa Luna, which means help us. So if you need help, you can call, I'm very sure, for young people, you can call nine young people. [01:14:26] Speaker B: 116. [01:14:27] Speaker A: 116. Yes. There's helpline, which was recently. Which, which line is that? [01:14:32] Speaker B: 933. [01:14:33] Speaker A: Yes. 933. [01:14:34] Speaker C: Yes. [01:14:35] Speaker A: I almost go into 991 because we grew up with that one. So 933, there's. There are three lines. There's also child support. There's another line. We'll try and put it on the screen just to bring awareness. Thank you very much for making this a great episode and see you during your PhD. [01:14:52] Speaker B: See you then. [01:14:52] Speaker A: Signing out.