Pension schemes- Lump sum and Napsa Pension

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Z Education Podcast. My name is Andrew Banda and always be welcome to episode number 29. Is that correct? Yes, this is an episode. That's. Yeah. Today I am excited because I have a friend that I've known for some time, but she's coming here. Not as a friend, but of course I'll use that to my advantage. Our guest today is a lawyer. I've always said that when a lawyer tells you that they love you, ask them what they mean, because whatever they say sounds this way, but it means something else. So today I have a lawyer in the house, and we have a good number of questions that we've prepared for this lawyer. So if you want to know how to pass your Ziyali as a young student, as an adult, this is the guest today. Our guest is on record to be a best student from unilateral in 2022. Yeah. And she's a mother and a professional. Without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, drum roll, please. We have in the house Muyanza Amanenga Kayombo. Welcome to the 3rd Ed podcast. Yeah. [00:01:29] Speaker B: Thank you so much. [00:01:30] Speaker A: So I was doing some digging on you, Mianza, and I hope you are as comfortable as you can be in your own home, because I know you from way back a couple of days. So I'll start from. You grew up in Ndola? [00:01:51] Speaker B: Yes. Born in Indola. [00:01:53] Speaker A: Born. And bread. [00:01:55] Speaker B: And bread. Dish. [00:01:56] Speaker A: Dish. [00:01:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Because my secondary school. School in Monza, Southern province. But my. I was born. Raised in Endola. [00:02:08] Speaker A: You know, people who live near the airport. [00:02:12] Speaker B: The old airport. [00:02:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. The Oddola airport. I don't know what it was called back then. [00:02:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:18] Speaker A: Okay. And somebody did ask me to say I should ask you this question. So in a family of how many? [00:02:24] Speaker B: Family of 12. [00:02:25] Speaker A: 12. [00:02:26] Speaker B: Now 11. We lost one. [00:02:28] Speaker A: Oh, yes. Yes. My condolences. So 11. One question that came in is, whose order between you and Jacob? [00:02:37] Speaker B: Jacob is my immediate young brother. [00:02:39] Speaker A: He's an immediate young brother. [00:02:40] Speaker B: He's a year and a half younger than me. Okay. [00:02:43] Speaker A: Okay. Shout out to Mr. Jacob Hamelenga. The man himself is happy to hear me say that. [00:02:50] Speaker B: He's my. [00:02:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know my answer. [00:02:54] Speaker B: You're just taller than me. That's so. [00:02:56] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. So I. I hope the person asked me that question has their answer. I met you, I think, in 2008. [00:03:08] Speaker B: I remember months of. [00:03:12] Speaker A: And you were nervous. [00:03:13] Speaker B: April. [00:03:13] Speaker A: Yes. [00:03:14] Speaker B: Somewhere there. [00:03:14] Speaker A: Yeah. We were auditioning you for a singing role, but before that, primary school. Itawa. [00:03:23] Speaker B: Itawa primary school. And Then later to D.C. sharma Memorial School in Indola. It used to be called Dilak High School, just near Modern. You know, when Modern came, then there was Duck High School. But then the name letter changed to DC Shama just by Broadway. [00:03:41] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Okay. [00:03:43] Speaker B: That's where I did my grade. Two to seven to seven only. Only grade one. I only did grade one at Ital Primary School. Okay, then two to seven. D.C. sharma Memorial School. Eight to nine. [00:04:04] Speaker A: No T did GMD. [00:04:07] Speaker B: Okay, okay, then 10 to. Well, part of grade nine. I. Then I left Ndola to live with my sister mazaboka. Okay, then 10 to 12, Rosango. So secondary school. [00:04:19] Speaker A: So if we talk about your sangui, as what necessitated you to move is you were living with your sister. [00:04:25] Speaker B: Yes. In Mazabuka then when I. [00:04:32] Speaker A: In Mazaboka. Okay. I think I've been there once. She's in Kafiwe. [00:04:36] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:04:37] Speaker A: Oh, perfect. [00:04:37] Speaker B: But at the time she was living in Mazapuka. So that's where I wrote my grade nine Mazapuka. [00:04:42] Speaker A: And your Pascal. [00:04:43] Speaker B: Then I. I decided. My guardians then decided to take me to boarding school and that's how I found myself at Busano. [00:04:50] Speaker A: Okay, so I have a lot of questions about Rusango. [00:04:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Because I hope no one from GE is watching this to say about Rus. [00:04:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rusanguans. I call you people. Let's go. About Rusango. I was. I was doing some digging and I came out. You're going to explain. I'll say a term and you're going to explain it. Cargo. But I think it has to do. What did you call? Cargo. Yes, but cargo was the hard stuff that remains after cooking Shiba. [00:05:28] Speaker B: Yes, now I remember. [00:05:32] Speaker A: And you people have gifts. [00:05:33] Speaker B: It had to do with shiba somehow. [00:05:35] Speaker A: Yes. What about koist? [00:05:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Are you sure you are. [00:05:44] Speaker A: I want to know if you are truly from Northumberland. [00:05:46] Speaker B: Yes, I am. And I know goodness. Leando and everyone else. Bear with me. Yes. [00:05:55] Speaker A: Okay. [00:05:57] Speaker B: East was some nearby bush. [00:06:01] Speaker A: Okay. [00:06:02] Speaker B: Where some people used to go and do some business there when the ablution blocks were not working. [00:06:09] Speaker A: Okay. So an alternative. [00:06:11] Speaker B: Okay. [00:06:12] Speaker A: Was. What about inters? [00:06:17] Speaker B: Inter is short for entertainment. [00:06:19] Speaker A: For entertainment. [00:06:20] Speaker B: We used to have entertainment on some Saturday evenings that would watch a movie and sometimes anything, but mostly tv. [00:06:28] Speaker A: Okay. [00:06:29] Speaker B: That was intern. [00:06:30] Speaker A: Okay. And of course a common one. Dingo. [00:06:32] Speaker B: Dingo Dining. [00:06:33] Speaker A: Okay. What about dicting? [00:06:35] Speaker B: Dicting. [00:06:38] Speaker A: You remember them. [00:06:39] Speaker B: But that doesn't mean I was a bad few. Pew. [00:06:41] Speaker A: Okay. [00:06:42] Speaker B: Dictating was a girl and a boy in a relationship hanging out okay. They have gone dictating or they are dictating. [00:06:50] Speaker A: Okay. [00:06:51] Speaker B: So it was an offense, by the way. Punishable. [00:06:53] Speaker A: It was a punishable offense, yeah. Okay. Okay. So to all Rusango people, you have one of you in here. The year is 2002. [00:07:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:04] Speaker A: History has it. And you were in at Rusango that time. History has it that one of the, I think the most coordinated school riots in the history of schools in Zambia. I remember, and I have details that you walked in your nightdress from Usango [00:07:26] Speaker B: to Mozeto many years ago. My goodness. [00:07:30] Speaker A: So what was that riot about? [00:07:34] Speaker B: That riot? That was in 2002. Indeed. I was in grade 12 that year. We lost a teacher that year. He was loved. He was a very popular teacher. Okay, I forget the name. [00:07:50] Speaker A: What subject was he teaching? [00:07:52] Speaker B: Can't remember. But I remember that he was our boarding master at the time. He wasn't teaching any subject at the time, but he was our boarding master, I think. And then he. He died after a very short illness. So I think that puzzled a lot of the pew pews. And we. We just sort of wanted answers. And we didn't quite get the information that we were hoping to get. So just out of that, there was no, hey, they've killed him. You know, we were kids. [00:08:24] Speaker A: Psychology comes here. [00:08:25] Speaker B: The noise started there. And then a group of boys then went and set ablaze some. Was it a fence? Yeah. In fact, what caused the commotion was the pupils then started pointing at another teacher saying, or something like that. [00:08:46] Speaker A: I see. [00:08:46] Speaker B: So early in the morning, I think somewhere around 03.04, a group of boys went and set his fence. Grass fence ablaze. [00:08:54] Speaker A: You don't say. [00:08:55] Speaker B: Yes, it was bad. So we just woke up to this noise and commotion. And then we all just came out of our dorms, started just following group of people. And then how we left, you know where, I don't know. First we were just following this mob. And we found ourselves outside the house of that same man whose fence. So when the fence went ablaze, was set on fire, then we knew, oh, my goodness, we would now just be, you know, accused of all sorts of things as on and whatnot. So the whole thing just ran out of control. And before long, we started just walking towards town. I don't know what we're running away or I don't know what that was. But anyway, I didn't go back to my dome. I was just in my night dress and with a couple of friends. And that's how we started moving because I think someone threatened to Call the police on us or something. [00:09:55] Speaker A: Okay. [00:09:56] Speaker B: We just started walking from zero. [00:10:01] Speaker A: For those that don't understand, Bembe in Janji. It's the rail line. Yes, yes. [00:10:07] Speaker B: We walked for about three hours and found ourselves in Monzet town. My nice dress. Oh, my God. [00:10:15] Speaker A: The thing that. There was no social media. [00:10:17] Speaker B: Yeah. I was with a group of friends then. One of the. My friends used to live in Monze at the time. So we went to her house, chewed there, and then later on, I think we went back to school. Two days later, the cops came and just said, Baghre 12, you were the oldest. Pasculu, you should have known better. You should have controlled this situation. And that's how we were all picked. [00:10:38] Speaker A: No, [00:10:41] Speaker B: okay. Not Catalanga, but some van. But all of us. But police. Yeah. And we spent the whole day there, not in the cells, but I think they just parked us somewhere. I think they were just trying to teach us a lesson. Yeah, but that was the first time something like that was happening. And I'm not proud. [00:11:01] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, but it's on the record, you guys, in that year, you. You did that. Yeah. And it's a great story. When does Mihanza realize that she wants to do law? How did that come about? [00:11:14] Speaker B: As early as grade eight, actually. I'm one of the few people who sort of had an idea of what I wanted to do from a very early age because of what I used to hear people say about me. By the way, my siblings used to call me Faweza, and it's a nickname that I grew up with because I loved school. I loved anything to go to school so far has to do with girl child education. Yeah. So I was called Faweza because of that. I loved. I was fascinated with education and I just wanted to see where it would take me. So. Because as a pathfinder, I used to do a lot of these, this memorizing of scripts. And I would hear people say, you know, you would make a good lawyer. I didn't have anyone in my family, by the way, who was a lawyer. So I didn't even have that direct, you know. But because of what people used to say, no, lawyers memorize a lot of things. They read a lot. So I was like, oh, I was curious, started reading up on that. So I, I. From grade eight, nine, somewhere there, I. I just knew that this is something that I may want to pursue. And well, thankfully for me, I. I went through with it. And I don't regret. [00:12:30] Speaker A: And you started from Unza? [00:12:32] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. [00:12:34] Speaker A: How's your journey in law. [00:12:36] Speaker B: Oh, that's another. [00:12:39] Speaker A: I know. I'm. I think I met you before you did your daily Y. [00:12:46] Speaker B: When I was in between uni and Ziyali. [00:12:49] Speaker A: That's. [00:12:49] Speaker B: Yes, that gap year. [00:12:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:51] Speaker B: So. [00:12:51] Speaker A: But how was your stay at Unza? Was it. Did you struggle with anything? [00:12:55] Speaker B: Of course. Oh, my goodness. But first. The first struggle was just getting into law school because you, you know, at Unza would first do that. General. First year of humanities, I was in the School of Humanities. So you had to make points, enough points to get you into law school. So there was like 500 of us in the School of Education and School of Humanities who wanted to get into law school because we were made to, you know, indicate what. What course would want to pursue in second year. First year is just. I wouldn't call it A levels, but you, you know, you. [00:13:30] Speaker A: You take in the sciences. It's like A level in the senses. Yeah. [00:13:34] Speaker B: So I was in the School of Humanities, and I had signed up to do law in second year, so. But I couldn't just get into law school. I needed to make enough points. So I think they said they only needed about 50 people and were like over 400, 4510%. Yeah, but I don't know if I'm still that. But I'm just very motivated if I want to do something, put my mind to it. [00:14:04] Speaker A: What did you sacrifice? Sleep? Is it [00:14:10] Speaker B: chills? [00:14:11] Speaker A: Chills. [00:14:15] Speaker B: And. And my roommates then would. Would say, get a life. Like, do something. Because my first year, my, My. My. My mind was just set on this. So I used to. I did everything I could. Like, I put in my best. And I always tell young people that you can be whatever you want to be if you put your mind to it with God by your side. There's nothing impossible. [00:14:39] Speaker A: How were results released back then? [00:14:43] Speaker B: So they would stick the names of those who'd made it, who had made it. [00:14:46] Speaker A: Okay. [00:14:47] Speaker B: So the first list just had 30 people. There were nine girls and 21 boys. [00:14:52] Speaker A: Were you there? [00:14:52] Speaker B: I was one of nine. [00:14:55] Speaker A: Who was the first person that you told to say I made it? [00:14:58] Speaker B: My sister Modi. At the time, I was thinking Modi. [00:15:00] Speaker A: Okay. [00:15:02] Speaker B: It was. It was beautiful. Then later on, my parents. At the time, my parents were still alive. [00:15:07] Speaker A: Okay. [00:15:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:08] Speaker A: So you. You made it through second year? [00:15:11] Speaker B: Yeah, after that first list, then they added a few other people, so we ended up being about 60, 70. [00:15:19] Speaker A: Okay. [00:15:19] Speaker B: Yeah. So that was my intake all the way up to 40. [00:15:23] Speaker A: When do layers get to know what they'll specialize in? Criminal or when do you do that? Like when do you. Or is it just llb? [00:15:32] Speaker B: Yeah, mostly we just first get on with the LLB and then you then decide at master's level. But. [00:15:41] Speaker A: Okay. [00:15:41] Speaker B: People choose different things. And, and in practice, generally, until recently, most people are just general practitioners, but over the years I've seen quite some. And. And it's a good thing for people to specialize. Yeah. Okay. In the past, I didn't see much of that. You just practiced in a law firm. You did all sorts of cases. So I started off in a law firm as an associate and I did criminal. I did labor. [00:16:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:06] Speaker B: Before. [00:16:07] Speaker A: So when you, you, you, you finished your degree, I met you. I think that's the time you, you started working for an Indian. [00:16:14] Speaker B: I was first working for Mr. Zak Moya. [00:16:19] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [00:16:20] Speaker B: As an intern at the time. I worked for him from the time I was in third year. [00:16:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:24] Speaker B: To the time I called. Yes. [00:16:25] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. [00:16:27] Speaker B: Then a year after I was admitted to the bar, I joined Patel. Abba Patel is now a judge of the Supreme Court. But then she was running a law firm in Indola. [00:16:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that, that I remember. But I remember you being stressed whilst you were doing your. Yeah, because I remember they did express concern. [00:17:00] Speaker B: Look, I told you, you that. I would do it, I would do it. So Ziale was stressful and there were a lot of stories of people failing. And you know, then, I don't know, I'm not too sure now, but they used to send people on five year bans if you fail three times. [00:17:19] Speaker A: Oh, so you fail three times, you [00:17:22] Speaker B: go on a five year ban, never [00:17:23] Speaker A: to come and write. [00:17:24] Speaker B: You can come back after. But I mean, that was just so scary. [00:17:29] Speaker A: Okay, now, now finish. [00:17:32] Speaker B: Yeah. So when I finally enrolled at Ciale, Oh my goodness, it was hectic. [00:17:47] Speaker A: Okay. [00:17:48] Speaker B: But yeah, I had to do my best. And what made it was I didn't have space sponsors. [00:17:55] Speaker A: Okay. I remember that. [00:17:56] Speaker B: So I had to find sponsorship and the people that sponsored me were employers at then where my. My employer and then another lawyer who then just saw potential and decided to take a risk. So I was not going to disappoint those people. I needed to put in my best because I was just being sponsored by well wishes, basically. [00:18:18] Speaker A: So. Okay, yeah, question is really tough. [00:18:27] Speaker B: Okay. Two things about the alley. One thing. [00:18:32] Speaker A: How many courses do you take away? [00:18:34] Speaker B: You know, it's been. Is it 15? [00:18:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:37] Speaker B: Since I left. [00:18:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:39] Speaker B: But I. I took 11 courses. Yeah. 11 courses. And each lecturer had their own style of teaching or how they expect you to respond to questions. So I say two things. First thingy, it's a lot. Secondly, it's not, it's not theory. You know, it's not like you, you're memorizing essay, then you reproduce it. [00:19:09] Speaker A: It's on paper. [00:19:10] Speaker B: So you do that at campus undergraduate, where you are taught all these theories. What taught is what label is and what criminal or whatever. But when you're at the alien, you now need to apply it to apply what you've learned to real life situations. Okay, so it's not about the length of what you have written, but 10 pages. No, nobody, nobody's interested in that. They want to see you apply the legal principles to real life situations, giving solutions to real life problems. [00:19:41] Speaker A: So that defeats the notion that people think lawyers, they just, [00:19:47] Speaker B: you know. I can give an example of my criminal law lecturer at the time, Judge Munchenga. His questions would be two pages. A question, a question. He's saying a lot of things in there you have to pick out because that's what happens in real life. People will come to you with a problem and they'll say a lot of things. Okay. You have to decipher from that information what are the issues here. [00:20:14] Speaker A: I see. [00:20:15] Speaker B: What are the issues here? So your answer could even be half a page. But it's about you picking out what are the relevant things here and what, how do you address this? There are a lot of irrelevance in there. There are a lot of things that are not even making sense, but you have to pick out. So for me, that's how I found zeal. It was, it was about being practical, applying properly applying legal principles to those scenarios and then drafting the relevant documents that you have to draft. Yeah. So that's how I can summarize. And, and then you also just being dedicated. [00:20:52] Speaker A: Okay. [00:20:53] Speaker B: Because it's a lot. [00:20:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I can imagine. Okay. What's the misconception about lawyers, if there are any? That you know, what about law? [00:21:05] Speaker B: That. Oh yes, one of the biggest misconceptions. And my mother was worried about that because she was worried that I was just going to be defending criminals, that lawyers just twist everything to get criminals out and stuff like that. But there's just so much that one can do with a law degree. [00:21:29] Speaker A: So somebody studies law. Because I'm also thinking, what I used to think about lawyers is you have to twist every fact, you understand that? And I'm thinking if you become a lawyer, you're going to be in a court of law. Okay, that was my thinking then Then if I think about it and, and, and, and if there's a young person who is watching this and they are thinking, I think I can become a lawyer. What are the possibilities? O one who studies law can do quite a lot. [00:22:03] Speaker B: Law is not always about someone being in court. So there are people like me who enjoyed litigation. I enjoyed being in court, although I [00:22:13] Speaker A: don't for the sake, for the sake of money. [00:22:15] Speaker B: Practicing law in court, defending or prosecuting or handling matters and going to court. [00:22:21] Speaker A: Oh, you enjoyed that? [00:22:22] Speaker B: Yes, I did. Especially when I was with NPA and criminal law. I loved it. [00:22:27] Speaker A: Okay. [00:22:27] Speaker B: And I miss it sometimes. So there's, there's, there's. You can practice law, you can be a litigation advocate where you, you're, you're probably an associate or a partner in a law firm and you handle cases, you go to court, you can do criminal. They are lawyers who are just good at criminal law. They, they are defense lawyers. You know, they, they, they represent the big fish. [00:22:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:52] Speaker B: In the society and that. I mean, we need them as well. You could be a prosecutor, you don't do defense laws. And I, I did that for four years at npa, so I was a state advocate. We, we. You are, you are basically, you're paid by the government to handle criminal case. Prosecute cases. [00:23:13] Speaker A: So yeah, the people that were saying not. Is it not a prosecutor? [00:23:16] Speaker B: Yes. So the police do their work. An offense has been committed, say something has happened. The police do their work. If they find enough evidence to prosecute this particular person, they hand over the file to us to handle the prosecution. Now, so we would only handle capital offenses, not misdemeanors, because those smaller offenses you go to the magistrate court. We would handle criminal cases in the high court. Murders, aggravated robberies and so on. [00:23:49] Speaker A: I don't know if it's okay for you. Did you ever handle cases that dealt with maybe sexual abuse of children? Did you ever come across those? [00:23:59] Speaker B: Yes, although I didn't because I didn't think I had the grace or the [00:24:08] Speaker A: strength to deal with those. [00:24:09] Speaker B: To deal with those. But I have a number of colleagues who handled those. I dealt mainly with other capital offenses like murders, prosecuting murders, aggravated robberies, infanticide and so on. [00:24:21] Speaker A: What is so in, in the murder cases that you dealt with, who kills whom or men killing women or women killing men? Or is it equal? [00:24:31] Speaker B: It really just depends on the offenses that you are dealing with. But yeah. [00:24:37] Speaker A: Okay. [00:24:38] Speaker B: Although there are more males in the remand prisons than females generally. [00:24:43] Speaker A: Did you ever have a case or cases where you Felt this could have been prevented maybe had this person decided to do something about it. Yes or no? [00:24:53] Speaker B: Yes. [00:24:55] Speaker A: Why do you think that they didn't do anything about it? [00:25:00] Speaker B: Okay, maybe rephrase your question so that [00:25:02] Speaker A: I just know, for example, if, if a man ends up killing a woman. Okay. And facts come to say this was not the first time that this was being done. [00:25:13] Speaker B: Oh, okay, okay. Say no more. [00:25:15] Speaker A: Okay. [00:25:16] Speaker B: I have one case in mind. Okay. So in, in about 20, 20, 2014, I prosecuted a matter in Kagway. It was a murder case. [00:25:27] Speaker A: Okay. Don't say much. I hope it's. [00:25:30] Speaker B: Well, it's in the public domain. [00:25:31] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:25:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. The public records. Don't worry. So it was a murder case. This gentleman who I was prosecuting, my colleague and I were prosecuting this man. He had his, his own lawyers. We were representing the state. So you know how you. It's the people versus Andrew Bamboo. So the people. We are the people representing the people as prosecutors. So we were prosecuting this gentleman who killed a two year old boy, step child. Okay. He, he had, he had been. We learned that he had been convicted of murder some years back, different offense. I think he, he admitted he was accused of murdering his workmate or something like that. [00:26:24] Speaker A: Okay. [00:26:24] Speaker B: So he served, but I think he was pardoned or something like that. So then when he left prison, he reunited with his wife, okay. With whom they had separated while he was in prison. She had fallen pregnant by another man [00:26:41] Speaker A: while he was in prison. Okay. [00:26:43] Speaker B: And somehow they reconciled after he came out. So they had about three children and then there was a small boy who the wife had conceived when they were on separation. And I think he had given her the impression that he had forgiven her or that they could still get back together. But I think he still had anger in him. And so he planned. It was a whole plan to kill [00:27:15] Speaker A: this child like he planned it? [00:27:18] Speaker B: Yes, but I think from the facts of that case, which I will not go into detail with, the woman knew that this man had been convicted of murder before. It's something that she could have avoided bringing in someone whom she knew, the type of person, the type of person that he was and trusting that he was going to still live with her and that child, whom he had initially threatened to kill. But then I think they reconciled and then she said, oh no. He said that he accepted the child. So there were a lot of such cases and very sad stories. I have a whole lot of stories. [00:28:01] Speaker A: Did we win that case? [00:28:02] Speaker B: Yes, of course. [00:28:03] Speaker A: With the people. [00:28:04] Speaker B: We, the people. [00:28:06] Speaker A: We, the People, we won that case. Okay. [00:28:08] Speaker B: And the man was imprisoned for life. [00:28:11] Speaker A: Brilliant. You mentioned that your mom thought that you would be defending. [00:28:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:18] Speaker A: Criminals. I know, because I was close to your family then. [00:28:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:28:27] Speaker A: I was with a brother in Kitwe, and tragedy happened that there was an accident that had mom and dad in an accident. Where were you then, and how did you receive that? [00:28:40] Speaker B: At the time, it was that gap year between Unza and Ziale. So I was just getting ready to get to Ziale when I lost both my parents. And my mom had a lot of questions about my career. She would. You know, she was a literature evangelist [00:28:58] Speaker A: and reading, so she. [00:29:00] Speaker B: She wanted just to be sure that I was on the right path. But I think I did attempt to explain to her that, look, there's so much I can do, and. And she came to terms with it. So I'm happy that at least she didn't go thinking her child was lost. [00:29:19] Speaker A: And that was the time that I had you sing at the funeral. [00:29:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, we met at that funeral. [00:29:26] Speaker A: Yes, we met at that funeral. And of course, I came to support. But [00:29:34] Speaker B: we sang through the night. [00:29:36] Speaker A: Yes. [00:29:36] Speaker B: You. The late intervention, Jerry. [00:29:38] Speaker A: Yes. You. You guys started in. [00:29:46] Speaker B: So there was about eight or so, and we sang through the night. Yeah. [00:29:51] Speaker A: And I was. I was. [00:29:52] Speaker B: I was asking which one of those. [00:29:55] Speaker A: There's a great voice here. She can sing, like, well anymore. Yeah, she can sing. How's the journey? And I'm asking this because I spent time with a brother, and I came to lose my parents later on. [00:30:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:18] Speaker A: And I don't think I really understood what he was going through because I had my parents. You understand? How was the journey of making great milestones in life after. [00:30:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:35] Speaker A: Yes. How's that journey? How was that journey like? [00:30:39] Speaker B: It was tough. For starters, I think I was the first of my parents. Children to get to university. So they had a lot of expectations. They were so proud, and I really wanted to make them proud and get to spoil them one day. Now, just when I was going to my final leg of my education to get that practice certificate, then I lost both of them. [00:31:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:04] Speaker B: So for. For a couple of months, I admit now, I think when I look back, I was actually depressed. I was depressed for an entire year. The whole time I was at Ziale, I was mourning, so I had to juggle with school. And then I had just lost both my parents. And sometimes I would lose that steam. You know, I told you, I'm generally very ambitious person if I want something, but sometimes I'd Find myself. So what is this awful. Like I'm putting in all this energy for what? Remember at the time, I'm single. It's not like I have a husband or kids. [00:31:45] Speaker A: Just you. [00:31:45] Speaker B: And my P.1 at the time were my parents. And they. I lost both of them. So I was very depressed. But I had a few friends that, you know, I would speak to. Morphia was one of them. Yeah. Yeah. She would really just let me vent. And that's the time I met Chinyant, actually that same period. So he happened to be the other person. I would really just vent. And I thank them because they really just let me. Would go on dates with my current husband now and could date. I would just become so emotional. And he'll just let me. [00:32:34] Speaker A: I wish she was here to ask him. [00:32:39] Speaker B: Just let me cry and there's not that. Yep. And then take me back home and then we try again next day. [00:32:45] Speaker A: Okay. [00:32:45] Speaker B: Yeah. But it was quite hard. In short. But I think God is faithful. God is gracious. One day at a time. I didn't really imagine myself even talking about this like this, but God is faithful. And he. He just pulled me through. I, I, I, I found other reasons to. To continue the journey. To pull through. And yeah. [00:33:10] Speaker A: You know the song by. Is it Luther Avengers? If I could. [00:33:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:33:14] Speaker A: If you could make one wish or one. If you could do one thing for your parents with what you have and who you are right now, what would it be? [00:33:28] Speaker B: It's hard to choose one. Because I love it. Okay. [00:33:31] Speaker A: What would you do? Okay. You can line them up. If you think about it first, I would. [00:33:36] Speaker B: I'd really be dumping my kids with them a lot. [00:33:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:33:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Because sometimes you just want to relax and. Yeah. I would also, I would have a lot of questions for them. [00:33:54] Speaker A: For them. [00:33:54] Speaker B: Yeah. How. How to navigate motherhood. Goodness. It's a lot. [00:34:00] Speaker A: And you're dealing with three, [00:34:05] Speaker B: so. Yeah. And now I have a teenager. [00:34:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:08] Speaker B: So I, I would, I would really use that parental advice. Thank God. I mean, so there are a lot of other parent figures that I have who have stood in the gap and have assisted me. [00:34:23] Speaker A: Who, who coined up the word Uyo Yang. Yes. [00:34:29] Speaker B: Of course. [00:34:29] Speaker A: It's a term that has always been [00:34:31] Speaker B: there and I have no idea where it came from. [00:34:33] Speaker A: So I also use it. I don't even know what it means, but I just, I use it. [00:34:37] Speaker B: One of these. [00:34:38] Speaker A: One of those. Okay. Because I was thinking that maybe it could have been one of your parents. [00:34:43] Speaker B: Yeah. But I would really spoil them. I Think I would really just spoil them and I would get all the advice if I had a way. Yeah. [00:34:53] Speaker A: To somebody who has both their parents right now and they're watching, what would your advice be to them? Do they wait until they have all the money or. [00:35:02] Speaker B: No, no, please, please don't spoil them as much as possible. [00:35:07] Speaker A: And your camera is up. [00:35:10] Speaker B: Do what you have to do. Because for me it was such a shocker. We were planning my sister's wedding at the time. I lost both my parents. It was the last thing on my mind. So you just never know when is your last time with them. So seize every opportunity. And I know parents sometimes can be a lot as they. Especially as they grow older, complaints, but just find a way because it's. It's not things. Hey, it's not things. And I know you understand where I'm coming from in the same shoes, but. Yeah, I mean spoil them, treasure them, tell them how much you love them as much as possible. Get all the advice that you can from them, learn from their experiences. A lot of things that only make sense when you are married and have kids. Then you now start. Oh, maybe that's why mom used to. Oh yeah. I personally, I used to hear mom pray for us a lot in the night. Yes. And I know there are a lot of things that are happening to me now that are answers to her prayers many, many years ago. So it would be interesting if she were alive for me to just. So what was going on in your mind? She would pray for us in the night and sometimes I would hear in my sleep I would hear her pray for us. And those are the treasured moments that you just spend as much time as you can love them, spoil them. Yeah. [00:36:44] Speaker A: Okay. Did you ever lose a case in your prosecution job as a prosecutor? [00:36:53] Speaker B: As a prosecutor, did you ever lose [00:36:55] Speaker A: a case on behalf of aspect people? [00:37:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Although. Okay, it wasn't really losing. We just discontinued the case. We entered the knowledge. I can't. I can't quite think of particular case of cuff. But what would happen then is when you realize that the evidence that you have is insufficient. [00:37:25] Speaker A: Okay. So you clearly know you will see that. Okay. [00:37:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Sometimes as you are beginning because you read the depositions, the statements by the witnesses, you interview them. Some things you realize that just by looking at the file, you don't get as much information as you do when you now interview them one on one. So there would be cases where you then realize that, look, I think our case is not watertight. Maybe it's not murder, but manslaughter so then you reduce to the appropriate charge. [00:37:58] Speaker A: Okay. [00:37:58] Speaker B: Or the case is just not making sense, the evidence is insufficient. You, you just discontinue it. Yeah. So there were such cases where we'll discontinue, would enter and all, and sometimes someone would even be acquitted, but it would not be very shocking most of the times because you are seeing the case as it is unfolding, that it's not a very water type. [00:38:21] Speaker A: But how do you get to feel if from where you're standing you can see that this person is guilty, but because of insufficient evidence, they get to walk? How does that make you feel? [00:38:37] Speaker B: I know it's not Covid, man. It has happened. And at the end of the day, the evidence is what the court goes by. So it means then that we didn't do a good job in investigations because most cases are lost at investigation stage. You, you, you really can't manufacture evidence even when your instincts tells you that, okay, this person could be guilty. But I mean, you go with evidence that you have. So, yeah, such things happen. [00:39:08] Speaker A: Okay, so I, I. There's a show that I like to watch. Is it the link, Lincoln Lawyer? I don't know if you've seen it. Yeah. And, and why I bring it up is I think for us, we know more of how law is practiced in the U.S. because of media or TV than Kono. So I can tell you, in the U.S. you have, of course, the defense, you have a persecution team and the jury there. Then there's a judge and this one stands, and they give those nice flamboyant statements. [00:39:43] Speaker B: Opening statement. [00:39:44] Speaker A: Exactly. Do we do opening statements like that? [00:39:48] Speaker B: We don't have a jury either. [00:39:50] Speaker A: Okay. Yes, that is. So who's there? Who's listening? [00:39:54] Speaker B: Members of the public. I mean, anyone is free. You could even just walk in one day and just sit in the gallery. [00:40:00] Speaker A: And I used, I used to go to, after I finished school, I used to go to Kuchfu Par. Nice cases there, not there. Okay, so I can go to magistrate, I can go to high courts. [00:40:15] Speaker B: Oh, so normally when we are handling a case, of course, if it's a criminal case, then you have relatives, family members, media sometimes, and just members of the public could sit in and proceedings [00:40:29] Speaker A: start in these higher offices, in the [00:40:31] Speaker B: higher courts or after all the paperwork and whatnot, because listing you have your dates, hearing date, so you know when you're going to court. It depends if it's a criminal matter or so I'll explain the criminal side. If it's a criminal matter. Well, you have done all your, you have all your statements and whatnot. The first thing that happens is the marshal, the marshall is like the. I don't want to use the word capacity, you know, Then the people that handle the, the work for the courts will call up the case. The people versus so and so. And whoever is accused will then be led to the accused. Doc. [00:41:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:20] Speaker B: Okay. The child. [00:41:21] Speaker A: I've been to fast track, by the way, so I'm getting a few things there. [00:41:26] Speaker B: So the charge will be read out first and foremost. Well, the, the parties representing the different, the lawyers representing the different parties would introduce themselves, put themselves on record and the charge. I haven't done criminal law, by the way, in a couple of years. [00:41:40] Speaker A: So now this is me just recording [00:41:43] Speaker B: the, the charge will be read out to this particular. And we asked to take plea. They'll be asked to take plea whether they plead guilty or not. They plead not guilty. Then of course, you have to now get into. [00:41:54] Speaker A: And you ask the language that they're comfortable to speak. [00:41:57] Speaker B: In fact, they even have to take oath. [00:41:59] Speaker A: Yes. [00:41:59] Speaker B: Okay, so if they, if they, if they don't believe in taking oath, then they would just be made to just affirm. Yeah. That whatever they will say. That is now for the witnesses, by the way. [00:42:11] Speaker A: Okay. [00:42:12] Speaker B: So they'll be asked to take plea, plead guilty or not guilty. If not guilty, then the evidence. The prosecution will be caught to now present their case. [00:42:23] Speaker A: Okay. [00:42:24] Speaker B: So then witnesses one by one will be going in there. We are a witness. Doc. They will take oath and they'll give their evidence. After that there's what is called the no case to answer stage, where from the. Before even the accused gives their side. Just from what has been laid by the prosecution. When the prosecution closes their case and makes their submissions. Sometimes would make submissions or some sort of summary of the case. Viva voce. Meaning you actually state what you're presenting before the court. This is our evidence. We believe the prosecution has made out a case based on the evidence that has been adduced. You sort of analyze. You state some decided cases to persuade the court to, to, to, to, to make a ruling in your favor as prosecution. [00:43:20] Speaker A: Okay. [00:43:22] Speaker B: At that stage, the defense lawyer will also present. Right. Most of the times it should be written submissions, but sometimes can even be oral submissions right there in court. The gurus will just get into it right there and start submitting without anything. Without. Yeah, because they've done it so many times. So they, they're very familiar. And then at that point the court will make a ruling on no case. To answer whether from the evidence that is presented, the defendant or the accused person should now state their case or not. Yeah. So if the court places the accused on his defense or her defense, then the defense case opens and they now need to state their case. If the evidence, the prosecution evidence is very weak at that point, the court can then just decide without even okay to hear. [00:44:21] Speaker A: That's. Do you ever miss that? Because I've seen you explain. [00:44:24] Speaker B: I do. I told you that I. But. But you intend to go back. I don't think so at this point. [00:44:31] Speaker A: Okay. [00:44:31] Speaker B: Because I like what I do now. I, I think life is all about change. I enjoyed it while it lasted. I did that for four years. [00:44:41] Speaker A: Okay. [00:44:42] Speaker B: Now I'm in the pension industry and I'm in the corporate world. [00:44:48] Speaker A: In the corporate world. [00:44:49] Speaker B: And I think I, I have found my niche so I can prosecute or defend the case without much trouble. Because I've done that. But I think it's. It was time for me to, to. To grow and do something else. And I love what I do. [00:45:05] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. Talking about what you're currently doing and I think this is going to be nice. You are working with napsa. [00:45:14] Speaker B: Yes. [00:45:15] Speaker A: And you are in the legal department as. What do you say there? [00:45:19] Speaker B: Senior manager. [00:45:20] Speaker A: Legal senior manager. I'm with a manager here. So we are good. So let's talk about the pension reforms. Because I know that every document the legal department has to go through, through everything and look at the implications and yeah, we. Before NAPSA there used to be pensions fund. I think it was a pensions fund. Is it [00:45:47] Speaker B: National Provident Fund? [00:45:48] Speaker A: Yeah, Provident fund. Okay. Per Provident fund. [00:45:53] Speaker B: There are a lot of buildings that. [00:45:56] Speaker A: So back in the day somebody worked for years and we grew up for example. And over the years I think there are 2,000 coming forward. There is a change to say now there's this napsa, this thing called napsa. So I'm going to play. I don't know much. Is NAPSA progressive? [00:46:27] Speaker B: Extremely. [00:46:28] Speaker A: I'd like to, if I compare it to. To what is now. And we always see changes in the reforms. Every now and then there's a reform. If you look at a young person who's starting work today, what do they expect from NAPSA to do for them when they retire? [00:46:52] Speaker B: When they retire. Okay. So first things first. NAPSA was established in the year 2000. Took over from Zambia National Provident Fund and the scheme design was now different. NAPSA scheme design is very different from the Provident Fund for the Provident Fund. That was a defined Contribution scheme. These are pension terms. Defined contribution scheme, which means you put in your contribution, interest is added at the end of a particular term, you get back your money with interest and you part ways. That's it. That's a defined contribution scheme. [00:47:30] Speaker A: A pension is a tribune. [00:47:33] Speaker B: The use of the word pension a bit misleading, but when NAPSA came in it was. Now this was a new scheme, defined benefit scheme. A defined benefit scheme is different from a defined contribution scheme. The primary benefit payable under NAPSA is a monthly pension which is the one year. When you're saying, when you are saying pension. Yeah. You were referring to a lump, a lump sum. You go your way. [00:48:08] Speaker A: You go your way. Yes. [00:48:09] Speaker B: Napsa, the primary benefit given under NAPSA is a monthly pension. It is not a lump sum. Okay. You, you. That benefit or computation of the benefit payable is defined by a formula which is in the law. [00:48:27] Speaker A: Okay. [00:48:28] Speaker B: So the law has prescribed how to compute a pension. So that computation has different factors embedded in it. Your years of service and so on and so forth. [00:48:42] Speaker A: Does my income bracket also matter? [00:48:45] Speaker B: Yes. So it's an average income. They take into account your average income and it's, it's used in the computation of the benefit. [00:48:57] Speaker A: So who calculates this? Is it Napsa or. I can calculate, like I said, the, [00:49:02] Speaker B: the formulas are embedded in the law and you can access, you can find the law, it's public, public documents. [00:49:09] Speaker A: Okay. [00:49:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So there's the National Pension Scheme act and there's also the National Pension Scheme regulations which now prescribe all these formulas, different formulas depending on the benefit that you are getting. And that's a whole field on its own, but maybe just to explain it broadly, so what you get if you qualify for a pension is a monthly pension that you get for life. By qualify, what I mean is you don't just automatically get a pension, you must meet certain benchmarks. Firstly, you must have attained pensionable age, which is 55. Used to be 55. [00:49:50] Speaker A: Okay. [00:49:50] Speaker B: Now is 60. Why? Okay, that's another discussion. [00:49:57] Speaker A: Okay, yes, we will come to that. [00:49:58] Speaker B: For you who started working when the retirement age was 55, you can retire at 55. Okay, that's, that's good news for you. [00:50:06] Speaker A: Thank. Okay, thank you. [00:50:08] Speaker B: Okay, so if you have reached your retirement age and you have met. No, you have made not less than 180 monthly contribution. Not less than, not less than. Which is equivalent to 15 years of service. [00:50:23] Speaker A: Of service. [00:50:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Then you are eligible for a monthly pension. [00:50:28] Speaker A: Okay, question there. If I turn 48 and have met the contributions of 180 contributions toward NAPSA and I decide to retire, do I get my money right there and then or when I turn 55, that's when [00:50:47] Speaker B: it's activated, when you turn. [00:50:50] Speaker A: Okay. [00:50:50] Speaker B: So these two must be met. Not one, but both. Both for you to now be fully insured and be able to be placed on a month. So when you retire, this is what? July retire this month, in August payroll, you are placed on, on the NAPSA payroll. Pensions. Payroll. Okay. And you'll be getting what has been computed based on that formula I told you, for life. [00:51:18] Speaker A: Okay. What are the model payments with the mobile money or bank? [00:51:23] Speaker B: Mainly, mainly through the bank. [00:51:24] Speaker A: What's the minimum amount? [00:51:26] Speaker B: The minimum amount payable under NAPSA for this year. This figure move increases every year based on the wage inflation. [00:51:34] Speaker A: Okay. [00:51:34] Speaker B: So it's not static. [00:51:36] Speaker A: Okay. [00:51:37] Speaker B: And, and that minimum pension is for those workers who are contributing smaller amounts. [00:51:43] Speaker A: Okay. [00:51:44] Speaker B: Of money, mainly workers such as domestic workers, general workers. So the, the minimum pension for this year, I don't want to mislead, but if I'm not mistaken, it should be between 18 or 2000. [00:52:01] Speaker A: Okay. And what's the maximum? A range. Just, just in a range of. [00:52:06] Speaker B: I'm not quite sure, but perhaps around 10,000. [00:52:09] Speaker A: Okay. [00:52:10] Speaker B: By the way, this is tax free. [00:52:12] Speaker A: It's tax free. [00:52:13] Speaker B: It's tax free. So if you don't meet that criteria, if you have not if you've reached retirement age but you have less than 180 contributions, you will then be paid your lump sum. [00:52:30] Speaker A: So If I do 170 contributions and I retire, I'll be given a lump sum. [00:52:37] Speaker B: So it, because you have not met the criteria for a pension, I see, you will then be paid a lump sum. I must mention here that. The primary benefit that NAPSA was established for, like I said, is a pension. But I must also state that with the current, with the reforms that were recently implemented, this, what I explained was the status prior to the reforms. The recent reforms are the recent reforms following the new because we repealed and replaced our act. So now we have a new act. It's called, it has replaced the old one. [00:53:26] Speaker A: Okay. [00:53:27] Speaker B: National Pension scheme Act number 72 of 2026. You can find it on the national assembly website or just you find it. Now we have introduced a 30% lump sum that one can get even if they qualify for a pension. So like for me, most likely by the time I'm retiring, I'll be eligible for a pension. I'll have made more than 180 contributions. But instead of just being placed On a pension payroll. If I want, I can claim 30% of my contributions as a lump sum. And the balance is what then is going to be used to. For my pension for life. [00:54:13] Speaker A: For life. So meaning the balance cannot expired. [00:54:18] Speaker B: So many people, and this is another misconception, maybe many people think a pinch, a lump sum is very expensive for Napsa and we don't want to pay a lump sum. That's why we want to pay a pension. A pension is actually more expensive for Napsa because you, it's not like when you, when, when we, we've paid you the amount of money that you contributed, then we would drop you. [00:54:41] Speaker A: No, we'll continue. [00:54:43] Speaker B: You are on a pension payroll for the rest of your life. When you die. If you have children below 18, they will be put on a survivor's pay. They will also be receiving a survivor's payroll until they turn 18. And if they are in school until 25. Oh yes. So for if you ask me if I will be given a choice whether to get a lumps and a pension, I will go for a pension myself because I understand the benefits. [00:55:11] Speaker A: Okay. But I. You still have the option when you retire, say give me. [00:55:15] Speaker B: So the new reforms now allow me if I want to get a lump sum because that was a public outcry for members out there that, look, I want to have some meaningful lump sum to be able to do one or two things. And, and we responded to that by introducing this 30% lump sum. [00:55:35] Speaker A: Okay. [00:55:35] Speaker B: The only difference is that if you got that 20% partial, if you got your 30% will have to be less that 20. Yeah. So the contributions after that 20% which you got after, they will get the entire 30% from the period where you got your partial, they'll just get an addition of 10%, hence the 10% that is to make that lump sum that you get, it's optional. If you want, you get. If you don't want, you just go straight on a patient, then you get a higher pension because then there's no deduction, there's no lump sum. Okay, so that's one of the major changes in our reforms. [00:56:23] Speaker A: What do you think? Or why do you think putting people on a lifelong monthly pension is better than just giving them at once to say, [00:56:38] Speaker B: if you know, we have different needs as people, what you may consider as beneficial, another person may not consider. But speaking on my own behalf, not for Napsa, but as Mwyanza here, speaking to you personally, I think a pension is better and I would definitely go for it if the law still remains as is at the time I retire. Because ideally Napsa was meant to just provide that additional income, that income replacement when I've lost my job, my income. [00:57:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:18] Speaker B: So when I'm no longer able to go to work and earn the money that I'm earning now, Napsa comes in to just provide that money basic cover. Just so that I should be able to pay my own bills. I should be able to buy my own newspaper. It's not meant to cover or to, to put me back to where I was because I'm only contributing 5%. So obviously I can't expect to get so much from Napsa because I'm not contributing 50% of my salary or it's just 5% and it is even cap. So I would personally go for a lump sum because I have this other 95. Sorry, a monthly pension. Okay. Because aside when I contribute that 5%, I still have this 95 where I can use to which I can use for other projects. This is my last option in case these things fail or for whatever reason. This other investment don't yield as much as I. I have this cover for life, transport money from a funeral. I get something at the end of. If it's a 7 pin or a 10 pin tax free for me a pension would work best. Okay, but, but like I said, people have different needs and have reasons why they would want to get. But this is just me. [00:58:46] Speaker A: Okay, I've. I have more questions but I feel like I'm. I'm promoting Napsa here. NAPSA should sponsor this episode. What do you think? So I saw something that was. Is it, is it a national fund from Napsa? Have you introduced some investment? [00:59:08] Speaker B: Oh yes. So like I said, there are a number of new features in our pension reforms. One was just the 30% I was talking about. [00:59:18] Speaker A: Yes. [00:59:19] Speaker B: One of the other new features in our new law is the introduction of sub schemes. These are like mini schemes from the main scheme. [00:59:27] Speaker A: Okay. [00:59:29] Speaker B: We have supplementary savings scheme. If as naps, I feel like, as an, as a contributor I feel like 5% is too little. I want to boost my savings. [00:59:41] Speaker A: Okay. [00:59:42] Speaker B: I can contribute another amount of my choices. No minimum, there's no maximum. It's up to me in the supply in my supplementary account. And this one is not linked to the main scheme so it doesn't have the exact rules where I should be. What. It has its own rules. What I'll be getting there is a lump sum. So in these sub schemes they have their own rules. And on a different day when you invite Napsa or someone from Napsa. We can, we can then shed more light. [01:00:15] Speaker A: Yes. So there's three of them. [01:00:17] Speaker B: Then there's also the Zambia Kochalo. [01:00:19] Speaker A: Okay, so let's, let's, let's hold it there. Don't go further. We should have the, the corporate affairs from Napsa because I'm telling you we, we need to have this information because it, from explanation. It's also, it's also helping me as an employer because it's also, there's that other side as well which is, which is very, which is very important. We're not going to talk for long. I think we, we're almost ending here. Mwyanza. If you were to make one change with regards to education in Zambia, with the low background that you have, what would you like to change or see change? [01:01:12] Speaker B: Yes. I'm a lawyer. Currently I'm in the pension industry. So pension is my, is a huge, I have a passion for that. I would love pension, education on pensions and savings to be embedded in our education system so that the culture of savings and planning for retirement can begin much earlier. A lot of people only become interested in Napsa or pensions or retirement issues when they are well advanced in age. But if only we could, we could introduce this aspect at even primary, if possible level or even secondary level, secondary school level. I think it will go a long way in just embedding this culture of savings and plannings. When you hear, when you go on the street and ask people about Napsa, the average person will tell you, yeah, why should I work and then just die and leave that money for other people? Let me eat it now. That's the response. I find that sad myself. And sometimes I feel like it's because we don't speak much about this, we don't teach our children much about this. If it can be broken down from an early age, every time you have something, you save this. That culture of savings and planning, long term planning I think will go a long way. So yeah, I think that would be one. [01:02:56] Speaker A: Okay. Somebody that we both know once told me they came home and they found we're just, we're putting up a library and the kids were reading and the comment was like, you're raising your kids like Mianza's kids? I was like, what do you mean? [01:03:18] Speaker B: Like, what do you mean? [01:03:21] Speaker A: So they said, ah, those kids can read. They're always reading. I'm thinking, okay, that's a good thing. What is it with you and reading for your kids especially? I can mention Lisa, I think was [01:03:39] Speaker B: sighted Lisa, I Don't know. Lisa naturally loves reading, but I learned also that in the family, especially from her dad's side, there are a lot of readers there. Mother in law reads a lot, morphia reads a lot. So I think there's also that embedded there. But I think it's also just parenting is hard. You have to make sure. So they come with books every day because they give them books, different books every. [01:04:17] Speaker A: Every day they have to read a book. [01:04:19] Speaker B: They have their homework, but they must have a book to read every single day. And you have to sign against that to confirm that the child read. So in the early years, of course, when they are learning how to read, they have those simpler books. It means you have to sit there and ensure that they read. They understanding you sign off. So from that culture, I think they then just carry it on themselves. My role, especially in the initial years, is to just make sure that I help them read a way that they can't read. But also there was a year when we had load shedding. That year, my children read like no other business because there was no power. [01:05:08] Speaker A: It was a blessing in this case [01:05:10] Speaker B: for me, it was a blessing in this in disguise because I think that was the year we scored even highest. Yeah. In terms of their grades. [01:05:19] Speaker A: So what does that tell you? Is it if. If there's less entertainment, like TV productivity for the kids? [01:05:26] Speaker B: Definitely. Because then they want to do something else. So Lisa would read her book when she's tired of reading. She would play with the books, become her pupils. She starts speaking to them like she would. The books were her toys. So aside from her just naturally loving reading from wherever she got it from. But I think those deliberate interventions, you control TV type, you must control TV time because left to their own devices, they can just go on and on. And as a working mother, you. It's harder. But you, you just have. There are certain things which are not negotiable. I believe in life, you. You have to find the time to sit and get them through, make sure they have read or they've done their homework and that way it carries them through. [01:06:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:25] Speaker A: Okay. So my manager is saying we are almost winding up here as you are speaking. Do you ever have moments where you. There's a time that we want our kids to learn how to read, but there are times that. Now. Do you ever have moments where it's time to eat? [01:06:43] Speaker B: Yes. [01:06:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:45] Speaker B: So the boys, I think they manage this better. Yeah, they are jumpy and whatnot. But Lisa, whenever you're on a trip, she carries A book with her. You're going to the mall to carry a book. You're going on a trip to see Grandma in Ndola. She will pack her things. Check her back. There will be a book. [01:07:05] Speaker A: That's brilliant. [01:07:05] Speaker B: Yes, I see. [01:07:06] Speaker A: I see why that comment came here. [01:07:08] Speaker B: Yes. Because many people come home like this. This child, she even attempted to read the Bible. She's. She's. I think she's somewhere around Leviticus. Really. [01:07:19] Speaker A: She intends the names in the Old Testament. [01:07:24] Speaker B: So it's a. It's a little extreme. [01:07:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:26] Speaker B: But people say, people. Sometimes I even sort of complain, like, this is a little too much. But people tell me, no, no, you just nurture this. Make sure she just balances. You teach her other things, but don't ruin this for her. So. [01:07:44] Speaker A: Yeah, because it's how she views the word. Yeah, it's. Reading is another word like just goes in. [01:07:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:07:51] Speaker A: And we need more readers, by the way. We need. There are surveys that have been done in that literacy levels are going down because of too much screen time. The world is too many visual things. And the more rapid. Never have a child. I read an article last week that was saying a child below the year of two should not be given to watch too many rapid moving things. When cartoons, you know, everything is just jumpy, jumpy, jumpy. It affects the attention span because everything is. So you find that. But reading, nothing is moving up and down. So you always have to make sure that a child first is introduced. Slow moving things, but mostly reading should be embedded in them, which is brilliant. You're doing a great job. They're doing a great job. From that comment that I got, like, oh, there's somebody who's raising the kids there. So this is the first time we're doing this. It's. It's a segment on the podcast. Remember when we used to go. Because this is trifier time. Yes. [01:09:01] Speaker B: It's a shout. [01:09:01] Speaker A: Now we call it shout out. So this segment, we want you to do a shout out to people that. And they should watch this podcast. So just do a shout out to anybody that you would want to do a shout out on the podcast. Yeah. [01:09:19] Speaker B: First things first. First people first. [01:09:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:09:29] Speaker B: A shout out to my siblings, Jacob Banji, Coolie Luendo. There's so many of you that you know yourself. Chibunya Petty. Shout out to Moka, my good friend in Luansha. Docus. Very good friend as well. Chancer. Chance. Yes. [01:09:52] Speaker A: She's in Kirway. [01:09:53] Speaker B: She's here in Lusaka. [01:09:55] Speaker A: Oh, he's now in. Okay, let me keep quiet. [01:09:57] Speaker B: Shout out to my singing buddies, the God's envoys, each one of you, I love you so much. [01:10:03] Speaker A: If you had to mention one name, which one would it be? Exactly. [01:10:07] Speaker B: That's the point. [01:10:12] Speaker A: Just one. Because I want to set the light. That WhatsApp group. Yes. Just one name. [01:10:19] Speaker B: Please don't do this to me. [01:10:21] Speaker A: Just one. [01:10:25] Speaker B: I'll never. I won't survive. I beg you. [01:10:28] Speaker A: Okay. You will survive. Yes. Just one. [01:10:30] Speaker B: Okay. Can I save a soprano at least? [01:10:34] Speaker A: Okay. Okay, that's fair. That's fair. [01:10:37] Speaker B: Close to my heart. [01:10:38] Speaker A: Yeah, that's fair. [01:10:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:41] Speaker A: Okay. That's your list? [01:10:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I think for now. [01:10:44] Speaker A: All right, thank you. Look in that camera. And please just give us your personal belief about why education is important because this is a platform where we want to talk everything. Education for Zambia and beyond. [01:11:01] Speaker B: Education is an equalizer. I always say that. Education is an equalizer. You must just put your mind to. Doesn't matter your circumstances. If you have the right attitudes, you put in the hard work. Trust me, you will make it. And education will be your mother. Education will be your father, will be your God. It will take care of you. So you must invest in it. [01:11:31] Speaker A: I like that. First time I'm hearing that education is going to be your mother, your father and your guardian. Yeah, well, you had it not from me, but from who's a lawyer, a mother, a manager at Napsa. I just found out that today and that means something. Thank you very much for finding the time for coming on this platform. Please, please make sure you subscribe. If you haven't subscribe to the channel and let the entire gang of the [01:12:03] Speaker B: Sopranos and the Autos. I love you too. [01:12:05] Speaker A: And the family support us. I've. I've enjoyed this conversation. I think we haven't. We talk business in Coco and all those things music. But just to sit and talk about your professional life. I think I believe you're in the right space. You, you, you. You moved when you started talking about. [01:12:27] Speaker B: So pension. Pensions. [01:12:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I know it's a boy language change. But thank you very much for making this possible. Until next time, remember the education agenda.