A cadre that sought for scholarships and not throwing stones

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Z Education podcast where we dissect everything that concerns education. I would like to first express my gratitude to all of you because the love you are showing us is amazing. Kato. I received a call from a father who is. What are these islands in Northern block? Yes. Chilu Island. Yes. There is Father K. I can remember something he told me. I watched the episodes, but why have you reduced on the weekly episodes? But it's amazing just to know that even people that are of the clergy are watching us. Kenya is watching. Zimbabwe is watching. Malawi is watching. Nigeria is watching. South Africa is watching too. The UK is watching. And I believe everyone. Right. I also know that even scammers now are watching because they are now in our inbox everywhere. [00:01:05] Speaker B: So that's good. [00:01:05] Speaker A: So we acknowledge everybody. Today we have. I have an honor to sit in the presence of a man that is a policymaker. He's counsel, he's a sportsman. And fun fact. This man is not taken care of who box because he is a boxer. And so today we will find out more about our guest today. Ladies and gentlemen, can we have the drum roll please? Our guest today is Mr. Dixon. Jerry Council. Welcome. [00:01:51] Speaker B: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be on this program. I'm looking forward to a good interview. [00:01:58] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. I am super excited. You know, I was. I was saying I wish my mother was. Was alive today because she once told me that my mother was Bimba. So she'd always say, you meet great people. And today is one of those moments that when I sit and I look at you, I'm thinking, is it really me sitting with Mr. Jerry here? Because it's an honor for me. And you being here reminds me of what my mother said years back. Mr. Jerry, welcome to the Z Education podcast. We have water. We have. We have tea. [00:02:39] Speaker B: I can see tea. [00:02:40] Speaker A: Yes. [00:02:41] Speaker B: So. [00:02:42] Speaker A: Oh, you love tea. [00:02:43] Speaker B: I love tea. [00:02:43] Speaker A: Okay, so we have different brands. The odds. Quick brew and something. And something of the sweet leaf. [00:02:52] Speaker B: I hope Quick brew reminds me of when I was young growing up. That was one of the few teas which was around this. What was that other one? Tanganyika. [00:03:02] Speaker A: Yes, There was also Tanganyika. Yes, yes, yes. [00:03:05] Speaker B: And then Tanganda. Tanganda from. [00:03:09] Speaker A: Was it the one from. [00:03:11] Speaker B: Yeah, no, but I think it was made from Kawamba. [00:03:14] Speaker A: Kawamba tea among Kawamba brands. Okay. And maybe you might have been privileged. Were you privileged enough to have these tea now is packaged into the. [00:03:24] Speaker B: Yeah, so we used to use Masamba, where you put direct into the Stand, boil. Yeah. [00:03:29] Speaker A: So would you drink even those? The tea itself or you would let it? [00:03:34] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Then they used to have like little safe where when you. Oh, you would sieve. [00:03:38] Speaker A: Okay. Because I knew somebody who would tell [00:03:41] Speaker B: me, no, if you're drinking tea, you must have those. [00:03:45] Speaker A: No, drink the tea itself as well. Yeah. Council. [00:03:49] Speaker B: You. [00:03:49] Speaker A: You are one person who is well known in the space of journalism, law, politics. And so today I want to pick out your mind. You grew up in Matero? [00:04:07] Speaker B: Yes? Yes. [00:04:08] Speaker A: What is it with Matero? Like, what makes Matero breed? Because you breed from Matero, what makes you people? If you ask me, from the Gopa belt. Okay. I grew up on the Gopa belt. People allude to the behavior, maybe to the center, the smoke that comes out. But what is it about Matero? [00:04:26] Speaker B: Material produces proud people. Okay. Yeah. They always want to. To make a name because almost everything that rotates around this country somewhere, somehow [00:04:39] Speaker A: is linked to material. [00:04:40] Speaker B: To material, yeah. So whether it's politics, whether it's law, whether it's football, whether music. Music, Whether it's boxing. So we always say Matero is the capital city of Lusaka, but also it's the city within a city. So if you talk about law, for instance, the immediately past Chief Justice Irene Mambirima. Material Product. [00:05:11] Speaker A: Ocean's Material. Product. Oh, okay. [00:05:13] Speaker B: Material Girls Product. [00:05:14] Speaker A: Oh, I see. [00:05:15] Speaker B: Former head girl of Material Girls. Oh, the current Chief Justice, Mumba Mali. Doc. Sc. Matero products. Matero Boys Primary School. [00:05:26] Speaker A: You see. [00:05:27] Speaker B: So if you move to sports, one of, if not one of the biggest boxers ever produced in this country. Chisandamuti. [00:05:37] Speaker A: Yes. [00:05:37] Speaker B: Matero. [00:05:38] Speaker A: Matero, yes. [00:05:39] Speaker B: So football, Jones, Butcher mza, one of the first Zambians to go also for professional football material. So I can go on and on and on to show you that in every sphere of life there's a success person whom you can link to material. Yeah. [00:05:56] Speaker A: So. So I'm now thinking, is, is. Is. Is it the culture in material or is it also that maybe the schools back in the day had an influence? Could that be? Could this. Did the schools contribute to who you are and those that have gone past? [00:06:12] Speaker B: Yes. But also it's the parents play the major role. And I think quite a number of us who grew up in material knew that our parents were not that educated, but they believed in the education system and they believed that for you to make it in life, you needed education. [00:06:29] Speaker A: I see. [00:06:29] Speaker B: And that is why some of us and a number of us started school from nest, which then used to be called Olofair. Yeah. So we'd go to Matero Community hall there, you know, to learn. And most parents used to take kids there because they believed in the education system. And there's a rough side of material, you know, the criminality, the misbehavior and so on. Some parents used to use that. You have to choose. Do you want to be like Waja or do you want to be like Wajaenza? BMW, I see, yeah. So the examples were right in front of you. [00:07:06] Speaker A: So you could to make a choice. [00:07:08] Speaker B: Yes. Do you want to remain a Mushangasera? Those days we used to call them the cigarette service. Or you want to be like driving a nice car. So the choice was right in front of you. By the way, there is also one institution that has helped shape Matero. Which one? That's Matero Boys Secondary School, run by the Marianist brothers of the Catholic order. So they opened up that school to even those kids who are not for or going for school at Matero. So it was a center of excellency for anybody. They had a stud center where we used to study from. Regardless of which school you come from, they had. I don't know now if they still maintain that the sports facilities which were open to the community. So for instance, most people from Matero, they love tennis and they produce great tennis players. Because the Marianis brothers are originally from America, I think, and they invested a lot in sports which were developing in America. So you see material magic in terms of basketball. It was all as Fleming coming out of Material Boys Secondary School. So the Catholics played a major role with that school and I think they still do. So all of us looked forward to go to Material Boys, either for chess, for football, for studying and. Or other social activities where evolved around that. Provided that when it's time for prayers. You attended. [00:08:45] Speaker A: Did you attend school at Matero? [00:08:47] Speaker B: No. So I went to Matero Boys Primary Primary School. [00:08:52] Speaker A: Okay. [00:08:53] Speaker B: I then went to Monari. [00:08:55] Speaker A: Why did you go to Monar? [00:08:56] Speaker B: But my day to day activities were always at Material Boys. So most people still confuse me that I was at Material Boys, okay, Secondary School. Because that was like, you know, my everyday place to go to, to study, to play football, to, to do everything. I went to Monari. And why my. My parents actually insisted, in particular my. My father wanted me to be at Monadi. Why? [00:09:24] Speaker A: Because [00:09:26] Speaker B: my father used to work for the investor of Zambia, okay? And he had quite a wide, you know, network within Zambia in the political system and so on. So he understood what is good for a child in terms of development. And so on. And at that time, Munari Boys was one of the few schools that had the who is who of Zambia's children. [00:09:52] Speaker A: Okay. [00:09:53] Speaker B: So you had children of a bricklayer, children of a plumber, children of a marketeer in the same class of children of members of central committee, ministers, chief executives and so on. So that it was a beautiful brand. And without Munali, actually, I wouldn't be where I am. [00:10:13] Speaker A: Really? [00:10:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:14] Speaker A: What did Munali do to you when you entered that squad, when you came out? [00:10:18] Speaker B: So what Munali did is exactly been in a blend of me getting on a bus from Matero to go to Munari. [00:10:28] Speaker A: Okay. That's a long stretch. [00:10:29] Speaker B: Yeah. So you go into downtown, into Monari. You had children walking out from garden from Matero, sometimes, Rilanda Walking. Yes. To Monari. You had children riding bicycles from Matteo, from Chaisa, from all that area, Banana to Monadi. [00:10:55] Speaker A: Okay. [00:10:56] Speaker B: You had children who have been dropped with the latest vehicles, a BMW, a Mercedes Benz. You had children being dropped by ministerial cars, all walking same door in one classroom. And that classroom had nothing to do on how you got there. Got there. It was the survival of the fittest. I see. And so it's now you using your brains, regardless of where you come from, to make it. And that's what Munari did to me. [00:11:30] Speaker A: Okay. [00:11:31] Speaker B: It exposed me to good life because some of my friends were children of the big guys in the country. I was able now to go in their homes to see how good life looks like beyond the Munari and beyond the Matero and msj, where we thought that this is the mayadi. Then you go now to the real mayades. Then you see, then you start getting aspired that actually I want to live like that. And so Munari actually cooked me. [00:11:56] Speaker A: Okay. [00:11:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Understood life from Munari. Understood politics from Munari. [00:12:01] Speaker A: Okay. [00:12:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:02] Speaker A: When we look at Dixon, do you have any middle name? Do you have a middle name? [00:12:06] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I don't need your name. I saw you Didi. Okay. [00:12:16] Speaker A: And. And people call you dj. [00:12:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:18] Speaker A: Okay. And you seem to love that, that, that brand. [00:12:20] Speaker B: The people call me dj. It means they're close to me. [00:12:25] Speaker A: Okay. [00:12:26] Speaker B: You know, I don't like this honorable ambassador. I'm a guy. [00:12:35] Speaker A: I like that. So when, when, when we were doing our background check on you. [00:12:40] Speaker B: Oh, you did a background check on. Yes. [00:12:42] Speaker A: You are one person that wanted to do boxing because you love boxing. [00:12:47] Speaker B: Yes. [00:12:50] Speaker A: If you're in particular boxer. My father loved boxing. Yes, yes. And every time in the for me in the 90s would sit and maybe watch about in the early hours. Which boxer was, do you think, first of all, which box do you think is the greatest of all time? [00:13:06] Speaker B: I think that I have to put Muhammad Ali. [00:13:09] Speaker A: Muhammad Ali. [00:13:10] Speaker B: And after Muhammad Ali has to put Mike Tyson. [00:13:12] Speaker A: I am Mikey. What was Mama Daddy thing? Float like a butterfly and sing like [00:13:17] Speaker B: so those two, I think these two the greatest. But I'll tell you one thing. Even in Zambia, yes, boxing was as popular as football. Football, you could fill up independent stadium. If there's a boxing match between Lotimware and Chisander Mother. [00:13:33] Speaker A: Really? [00:13:33] Speaker B: Yeah. You know when I say filling it up, the whole stadium is filled to capacity because they want to watch a boxing match between Chisanda Muti and Lotimani. And Sandamoti was a material guy and so it means. [00:13:48] Speaker A: Yes. [00:13:49] Speaker B: And Lotimal, I think was more Mandevo and whatever. Yeah, crazy stuff. [00:13:53] Speaker A: I see. [00:13:53] Speaker B: Yeah. So we who were in material, we were privileged to go to an academy which was established by Chisander Muti. [00:14:01] Speaker A: Okay. [00:14:02] Speaker B: He had gone abroad, uk, us and when he came back, he set up an academy for young people. And we were, you know, part of that academy. [00:14:09] Speaker A: So I'm trying to see young dj. Did you have bouts with people or inspiring with people? [00:14:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also talk about Matero. [00:14:18] Speaker A: Yes. [00:14:19] Speaker B: Where the clinic is there. There used to be a boxing ring. Oh yeah. So the community used to go and fight. We used to call it so weekends. Yeah. So we used to call it White Tanda. [00:14:30] Speaker A: Okay. [00:14:30] Speaker B: So the guy goes there and he beats over, is in the ring, somebody has to challenge him and when he's beaten the other guy out, it's just very interesting, you know, time. And it's only now that they've demolished that boxing. It was a permanent there to promote community sports. [00:14:49] Speaker A: Who was sponsoring those projects? [00:14:51] Speaker B: The council. Interesting. It was the Lusaka City Council. [00:14:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:56] Speaker B: So they had that boxing ring, they had that community hall for all ofair and whatever. They had home economics for women to go and learn how to, you know, sew clothes, cook and so on and so forth. I don't know what has happened to that particular, you know, community investment. You can quick to answer because I [00:15:20] Speaker A: wanted to ask you, you say, then what changed? Because that model seemed to have been working. [00:15:25] Speaker B: Yeah. So if you go there, there was a clinic here. There was Matelo Gym, which is still there. There was a community hall where there was badminton, tennis and so on and so forth. Indoor sports. The other side wings were used for you know, necessary school. You had home economics, you had boxing, you had a play park, you had postal office. And you are a mini civic center. Right. In Matelo, everything used to happen in Matelo. In fact, even writing letters. They would drop it at your house [00:15:57] Speaker A: because it's just within. [00:15:59] Speaker B: No, the house numbers used to work. Oh, yeah. My house number was 996chito lot. It will still come. Whether the letters coming from abroad or whatever. It was a system that was well, well organized under Kaunda, you know, every Thursday you have a truck from the council going around to collect garbage. [00:16:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:20] Speaker B: Each house had a dust bin. [00:16:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:22] Speaker B: You know, written locc 1976. [00:16:25] Speaker A: Those metallic. [00:16:29] Speaker B: So, you know, I don't know why. That's why some of us have been saying we need a mind change for people who wants to aspire to be in politics. Because it. It happened then how come it's not happening and it. [00:16:41] Speaker A: It happened. Meaning it was proved. [00:16:44] Speaker B: We grew up in that environment. [00:16:45] Speaker A: Okay. [00:16:46] Speaker B: You know, cleaning the council, going around to spray your houses. [00:16:50] Speaker A: Yes. [00:16:51] Speaker B: When there's vaccination. Well organized everything the community was well, well taken care of. So I grew up in that environment. [00:16:58] Speaker A: I want to take you back to boxing. [00:17:00] Speaker B: Yes. [00:17:00] Speaker A: Because I'm very excited around boxing. If we had Mike Tyson at his prime and we had Muhammad Ali, Cassius Clay at their prime and they were made to fight, who would you put your money on? [00:17:14] Speaker B: Yeah, of course, there are different categories which they're fighting. [00:17:17] Speaker A: Yes. But if we took him to. [00:17:20] Speaker B: I mean, to be honest, Muhammad Ali had a way of fighting which was more entertaining, you know, more relaxed and whatever. Tyson was a beast. [00:17:31] Speaker A: Fury. [00:17:32] Speaker B: Yeah. He goes in, he has to bring you down within seconds, you know, so I would not. I would enjoy boxing with. Okay, let's say they're the same weight guys category. Mike Tyson versus Muhammad Ali. I think Muhammad Ali would be able to win because. Really? Yes, because he would not have given an opportunity for Tyson to hit you. [00:17:52] Speaker A: What would have been his strategy? [00:17:54] Speaker B: Because he would not go in full fl. Okay. He would run around the. The ring. Tyson would get a chance, then he would be hit. [00:18:04] Speaker A: I see. [00:18:05] Speaker B: Because Tyson was using force, a bit of tactic, but. [00:18:09] Speaker A: And close. [00:18:09] Speaker B: Yes, closeness. Exactly. Engagement. While was more tax. [00:18:14] Speaker A: Okay. [00:18:15] Speaker B: And it was good in dodging punches. [00:18:17] Speaker A: Okay. [00:18:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:18] Speaker A: Are you able to show me your. Your right job? I like that. If we look at over the years, you, you. You wanted to do boxing, but material Manali opens up your mind to say, look, there's this world that can give you a better life than you currently have or you thought you. You have seen. You finished your grade 12. How are your results? [00:18:47] Speaker B: Oh, good, good. Very good. Hey, I mean, I was not a Takataka student. [00:18:54] Speaker A: You're not in group three. [00:18:55] Speaker B: Because, you see, we had a reason to be in school. And because we had a reason to be in school, we had to work extra hard. Okay. You know, sometimes you knock off, you have to study up to, you know, late in the night because you had a reason why you needed to be in school. [00:19:12] Speaker A: Okay. [00:19:13] Speaker B: It was a game changer. [00:19:14] Speaker A: Okay. [00:19:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:15] Speaker A: Then DJ finishes school gap year. What did you do before? [00:19:20] Speaker B: Yes, so interesting. The year I was finishing that gap year, me and a colleague of mine, I think he's deputy director general of the NBC. Narumino. Nalumino. Okay. We ended up being picked by Lucy Cichone. She was a prominent lawyer, politician and so on. She had just set up an organization called Zambia Civic Education Association. And so I was part of the interns with my colleague Narumino. [00:19:53] Speaker A: Paid interns? [00:19:54] Speaker B: Well, yeah, a little stiffened. But it was a good internship. [00:20:00] Speaker A: Because in. In school you used to do a lot of writing. [00:20:03] Speaker B: Yes, but also I was in the debating club, in fact. [00:20:08] Speaker A: Okay. [00:20:09] Speaker B: Former minister. Mposha. Yes, that was my debate panel together. Okay. Was our rival at Kaburonga, Finance minister. Yeah. So we know each other from those circles. [00:20:22] Speaker A: Okay. [00:20:22] Speaker B: So I then worked at Civic Education where she was offering free legal services to the indigent. [00:20:32] Speaker A: Okay. [00:20:33] Speaker B: So she organized workshops go in the villages to present them on land issues and so on and so forth. At that time, there was a huge debate on constitutional amendment. And so we got involved to be part of the staff as we were to organize what then became a citizens convention where we were opposing the government of Chiduba. Then to introduce a new constitutional amendment. And so it was a very interesting point. As youngsters going to Mulungushi. I think it was like a week long event. And yeah, meeting all the big names, all the big politicians, AKA Shambatua, all those. We used to see them on tv, read about them. Then we started interacting with them. [00:21:20] Speaker A: With them. Okay. [00:21:21] Speaker B: That is why most of these guys, I know them from there. [00:21:24] Speaker A: I see. Before your career? [00:21:26] Speaker B: Before my career started off because we were like the staff, the engine behind that convention, but also working with the Mrs. S. The way we used to call her. Oh no, Ms. S. She introduced us to so many people. And that's how I met people like Lorna Miti, Christine Kunda, Elias Chipimo Jr. He was the vice chair of that institution. Yeah. Who was just past central committee member in charge of the youth in uni. Yeah. So we got to work together. [00:21:58] Speaker A: Okay. [00:21:59] Speaker B: And that gap year, you know, literally launched us in the political life. [00:22:04] Speaker A: For somebody who has made a lot of influential people even before you had a career, who. Among the people that you've met being president or be presidents or any of these people, who was one person who, whom you were very happy to meet or you felt this person as an aura, is there anyone that, like, you are starstruck to say, do you have any. [00:22:28] Speaker B: I mean, look, I've met several people. They, they, they just get mesmerized. [00:22:33] Speaker A: You. [00:22:33] Speaker B: But I think one of the person who, like, put me in a situation where I'm asking myself, is it me? Is when I met Dr. Kaunda. And it was at the, at the convention, Citizen convention when I was there. Eventually I started meeting more often. Okay. And each time I met him, his discipline. Yeah. Always mesmerized me. Even as he was growing old, he had certain threat. Like for instance, when you're driving, going out for a trip, he preferred to drive in the morning, like 01 02. Really? Yeah, 06 during the morning. So you must be awake. [00:23:19] Speaker A: Is that a protocol that maybe he [00:23:20] Speaker B: could have learned from the Soviets? He believed all these road trips in the morning. So I actually borrowed that. So most of the time when I'm going back home to Chipata, I like starting off maybe at 0203. Yeah, it's because of that. And also. Yeah, the roads are clear. [00:23:36] Speaker A: Yes. [00:23:37] Speaker B: You know, the rules are clear. Very few people are traveling during that time. And yeah, he would do that. Okay. Yeah. [00:23:44] Speaker A: DJ then goes to college. And you have a very interesting story. Yes, you go to college, you do journalism. Which, which institution was that? [00:23:53] Speaker B: I went to the Evelyn and Evelyn [00:23:56] Speaker A: Horn has produced, I think, some of the greatest. [00:23:59] Speaker B: Yes, it's the best journalism school in, in the country and in the region. [00:24:05] Speaker A: Okay. Because I wanted to you to compare, say, how was it faring in the region? [00:24:09] Speaker B: So there are people who were coming to learn journalism at even on College. So there were two in Zambia, there was even on College, which was offering a three year diploma course. And there was Africa Literature center in Kitwe which was offering a year diploma. So Africa Literature center was structured in a way that it had even more international students because there were scholarship coming in from the church while everyone. College was government. So if you checked, whoever was editor, all the newspapers, whoever were, they were all product of univers of evening on college at that time, Unza had Mass communication. But most mass communication students were going to their NBC or into pr. [00:24:56] Speaker A: Okay. [00:24:57] Speaker B: Yeah. There were more in the TV opio, but those who are writing the actual writing were more at every. And so, yes, I joined the coffee there. [00:25:08] Speaker A: And so you leave Evelyn Horn and your life. How old were you when you left Evelyn home? [00:25:15] Speaker B: Oh, I. I think I was like 23. [00:25:18] Speaker A: 23? [00:25:19] Speaker B: Yeah. 23, 24. [00:25:21] Speaker A: When did you leave your parents home? [00:25:23] Speaker B: At about 22. [00:25:25] Speaker A: At 22, yes. Where did you go? [00:25:27] Speaker B: So staying with friends. [00:25:28] Speaker A: So just told them. [00:25:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Because when I was in the first year. [00:25:34] Speaker A: Yes. [00:25:35] Speaker B: I started writing for the Post newspaper then, you know, it was a bi weekly. [00:25:41] Speaker A: Yes. [00:25:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And I was being paid a statement which was quite good. And after two, three articles, I was then integrated into the newsroom. So most of the friends I have even now, they were friends I met at the Post who were working full time while I was a student at TVHorn. [00:26:00] Speaker A: Okay. [00:26:00] Speaker B: And I even moved in with some of them. Okay. Yeah. So to make our movement easier, because when I knocked off, I used to go to Kanjombi house in town to go and, you know, work. And so that's how I left my parents and started living with my friends. Yeah. And I never looked back. [00:26:16] Speaker A: Okay. [00:26:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:18] Speaker A: You as a journalist, when we're doing our research. Very interesting. I'm just thinking this man, you have been in prison or cells. [00:26:28] Speaker B: Yes. [00:26:28] Speaker A: This reminds. Yes. When was your first time or how was your first time? I want to know where you were first locked up. [00:26:38] Speaker B: Why? So, so, so that question is loaded. [00:26:43] Speaker A: Yes. [00:26:44] Speaker B: When you say for the first time I was in prison. [00:26:47] Speaker A: Yes. [00:26:48] Speaker B: I was in prison before. Not in prison, rather than the police there. [00:26:51] Speaker A: Yes. [00:26:52] Speaker B: I was the police there long before journalism. Yeah. [00:26:55] Speaker A: It's. So, of course, because of material. [00:26:58] Speaker B: And there was a time we. We were part of the unruly Munari boys rating. We closed. Yes. We closed the road. Yes. Because we wanted change. And he was president then. And we had, as you wanted, change of government. Yes. We were calling for multi party democracy in 1991. And so we got arrested. Yes, we were. [00:27:20] Speaker A: That was your first time? [00:27:22] Speaker B: Well, no, but before then I was arrested before because of fights in material. [00:27:25] Speaker A: Oh, and you'd box. [00:27:26] Speaker B: Yes. And yeah. By the way, also I do martial arts, karate, judo and so on. So I need to move away from you, sir. [00:27:36] Speaker A: Okay, so let's take it the first time you got arrested as journalists. Would you remember? [00:27:44] Speaker B: Well, there was a couple of times now, I can't remember which one, but I've got But I have had incidences where I was arrested when I was still even a student. [00:27:53] Speaker A: Okay. [00:27:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Even when I was arrested for that treason. Yeah, I'm coming. I was still a student. [00:28:00] Speaker A: You were a student? [00:28:01] Speaker B: Yes. [00:28:01] Speaker A: So, Mr. Jerry, if I may ask. [00:28:03] Speaker B: Yes, but I was covering Dr. Gaunda. I was like, weekends, remember the Post used to produce two copies? [00:28:10] Speaker A: Yes. [00:28:11] Speaker B: Friday and I think Tuesday. And so there was a lot of time to, you know, do stories. Okay. And I developed relationship with Dr. Kaunda. So each time there was a story which involved Dr. Kaunda, I was the one interviewing him. That time I was still a student, but, you know, featuring in the first. [00:28:29] Speaker A: So my question was, what was your role in. [00:28:36] Speaker B: In the couple? You had no role. Look, So I met Dr. Kaunda. [00:28:43] Speaker A: Yes. [00:28:44] Speaker B: I think it was two days before there was an attempted coup in 1997. 1997, which was Captain Solo. [00:28:54] Speaker A: Yes. [00:28:55] Speaker B: Who had attempted to remove. What was it? [00:28:57] Speaker A: Was it Wednesday or Tuesday? It was a weekday. [00:29:00] Speaker B: So I had an interview with Dr. Kaunda, and the story came out on a day before the coup. And so I remember the headline was, KK Warns of an explosion. And so the old man was telling me, there's gonna be explosion in this [00:29:19] Speaker A: country because of the intel that he received. [00:29:22] Speaker B: Wow. No, you were saying, the political temperature is very high. There's gonna be an explosion. But I won't tell you what form this explosion will take. But, you know, there'll be something headline, boom. Those are cool. So they linked everything. [00:29:36] Speaker A: Okay. [00:29:37] Speaker B: Yeah. And so, yeah, I disappeared for a good six months or so. [00:29:43] Speaker A: Where were you hiding? [00:29:44] Speaker B: I was somewhere. Yeah, somewhere. So Mr. Jerry just captured me. [00:29:48] Speaker A: Yes, before they captured you. So the six months a person was a journalist, I'm sure you were getting information to what is happening. So I'm sure you're listening to radio. [00:29:57] Speaker B: Were you. [00:29:57] Speaker A: Were you reading print paper? [00:29:59] Speaker B: I mean, I was well informed. Well informed, including movements. [00:30:05] Speaker A: Okay. [00:30:05] Speaker B: That tomorrow they're going to kill you, so you have to change the destination, your hideout? Yeah, I mean, I was well informed. [00:30:11] Speaker A: What was it like reading the account of your implication pieces written by some of your colleagues who wrote those articles? Like, how was that for you? Would you know that these guys are lying? They don't know the truth. [00:30:25] Speaker B: It was interesting. I mean, look, I don't know now, but the journalism I practiced, we used to say you have to die with a no to protect the source. [00:30:35] Speaker A: Okay? [00:30:36] Speaker B: So between me and kk, I could only say what was in the paper and I could not say what was said beyond what was in the paper. [00:30:49] Speaker A: I see. [00:30:50] Speaker B: And so even when they arrested me and they insisted that I needed to implicate Dr. Kaunda in exchange for a scholarship, a job or whatever, so I became a state witness. [00:31:06] Speaker A: I was that witness. [00:31:07] Speaker B: I refused because then I would have gone against my journalistic ethics. [00:31:12] Speaker A: Okay. [00:31:13] Speaker B: But that also would have killed my future. Yeah. I mean, Dr. Gawanda was an institution. [00:31:19] Speaker A: Yes. [00:31:19] Speaker B: Yeah. So how do you go and implicate such a man in something which he didn't actually do? And so, yeah, so there was that. [00:31:28] Speaker A: Okay. [00:31:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:29] Speaker A: When you were picked up, I'm thinking. Because I didn't know that you were arrested whilst you were even in this house. So at this point, is your family used to you being in. [00:31:39] Speaker B: I'm a trouble man. So it comes with dj. [00:31:45] Speaker A: Now, DJ is implicated and he is a journalist. He has links to people that have done law. The lady that you. [00:31:54] Speaker B: That you mentioned, [00:31:57] Speaker A: did that case take off? [00:31:59] Speaker B: Yes and no. So the charge, if you remember it was then with reduced from treason to misprision of treason. [00:32:07] Speaker A: Okay. In what space? How long were you in detention? [00:32:11] Speaker B: Because if you remember, Dr. Gowda also had left the country. [00:32:15] Speaker A: Yes. [00:32:16] Speaker B: So he was arrested on Christmas Day. [00:32:20] Speaker A: Is it the one you went. Yeah. [00:32:21] Speaker B: So cowboy and whatever. [00:32:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:23] Speaker B: At that time, they had not arrested me. Yeah. Because now there was that issue of then I don't know what I went to do at school. I was stupid enough that I showed up at Vinland College and that's how I was captured. [00:32:43] Speaker A: I see. [00:32:43] Speaker B: And I even know who was a spy and who actually informed the police. [00:32:48] Speaker A: Okay. [00:32:49] Speaker B: Yeah. He's late, I think, now. So after I was arrested, that's what now, that discussion. Okay, then we are now formally charged. I was formerly charged with family, but there was an international pleasure, especially from Sadiq. And that's how the charges on Dr. Kawunda were dropped. Which consequently meant that my charges also were dropped. [00:33:11] Speaker A: What was running in your mind when you were charged with? Cause that's, I think, not the highest one of these. [00:33:17] Speaker B: It's a serious offense. [00:33:18] Speaker A: What was running in your mind when you received those charges? Because I'm looking at the people that you were charged with. You're looking at a former president who had muscle, who had connections. [00:33:29] Speaker B: I knew that there would be a political influence settlement because of Dr. Gaund. Okay. Yeah. [00:33:38] Speaker A: But did you think you would be a casualty of. [00:33:41] Speaker B: No, no, no. Because remember, to get to Dr. Karonda, they needed me. [00:33:45] Speaker A: Ah, I see. [00:33:47] Speaker B: They needed me. Okay. There were other politicians who got caught up and ended up Being in jail for almost three dinimba and so on and so forth. Yeah. So me, mine was linked to Dr. Gaund because that interview, we were the two of us. Okay. Yes. [00:34:04] Speaker A: Just there. There's a young journalist who's watching this. What is the advice? I know you've got ethics because I think you were also smart in the way that you, you handled yourself and, and, and calculated your moves. What is your advice to young journalists in this dispensation who maybe if they stumble upon some information which is very sensitive or confidential. What is it called? Maybe some which might threaten state security. What is your advice to such people when they stumble upon a piece of information that is exciting in terms of how they bring it out? [00:34:44] Speaker B: Well, I mean it's a difficult situation and I think different environments now. In our environment we had a very strong support system just like the Post itself. Editor Fred Member, Masao Sopili, Bright Mape, all those guys. We had a very strong support system that the international media, the international human rights organization easily came on board and even they raised money for lawyers to defend you at that time. Yeah. So there was a very strong thing. And also this issue of not burning a source was a big issue. So there was no way you can bend a source and have your life easy, you know, so we used to say you'd rather go to jail. Yes. Than dispose the sauce. [00:35:35] Speaker A: Would you pay a source? [00:35:36] Speaker B: Because that is what actually makes journalism. If you are an investigative journalism, a minister should be able to come and say here's a cab memo exposing something. You get arrested. You can't mention who gave it to you because once you do that, your credibility is gone. [00:35:58] Speaker A: It's gone. Yeah. [00:35:59] Speaker B: Nobody is going to give you any sensitive information and that's how dangerous journalism is. But also it's not for the faint hearted. [00:36:07] Speaker A: It's not. [00:36:07] Speaker B: No, it's not. [00:36:08] Speaker A: I see. [00:36:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, okay. [00:36:10] Speaker A: Because it's flamboyant. Because most people just think I'll be on tv, I'll be writing. I'll be. [00:36:14] Speaker B: Yeah. So there's always this, you know, mistaken belief that presenters and you know, those who read news are journalists. No, no, no. Journalism. Most of them, we don't even know them. [00:36:23] Speaker A: Okay. [00:36:24] Speaker B: Yeah. There's a. Guys who get the story. Yeah, those are the guys who go like in CNN to the Warfranch. Yeah. That's a risky business. [00:36:32] Speaker A: Okay. Generally get insured. [00:36:36] Speaker B: Well, some companies do, but it's also a risk business. [00:36:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:39] Speaker A: Okay. So you. So that, that, that, that case, you said it didn't yes or no in terms of it taking off. So it never went to court? [00:36:48] Speaker B: Well, I mean, there was a discontinuation which was filed in court. Okay. Yeah. So the case is finished. [00:36:54] Speaker A: It finished. [00:36:54] Speaker B: And for the soldiers and other politicians, it proceeded. [00:36:57] Speaker A: Okay. How do you pick yourself up from there? From there or for you now, did you wear that as a badge of honor? [00:37:04] Speaker B: No, because I think I had exams coming up. I immediately went and did my exam. Finished way I went back to the news. [00:37:12] Speaker A: And how old are you at this time? [00:37:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I think about 20. [00:37:15] Speaker A: 25. [00:37:15] Speaker B: 20. No, 23. No, I think 23. [00:37:18] Speaker A: Okay. [00:37:19] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I was a young boy there. I think 23, 24 somewhere there. No, 20. 20. Yeah, 23. [00:37:25] Speaker A: 23. [00:37:25] Speaker B: Because two years later, and that's how I remember I was then elected as president of Misa. [00:37:31] Speaker A: Yes. [00:37:32] Speaker B: And I was 25 there, so. Yeah. [00:37:34] Speaker A: Okay. At 23, did you have a cousin? [00:37:39] Speaker B: No, but we had, we had a, like pool cars. Okay. Which we could use to use as the Post newspaper. So we, we were the flamboyant boys in town. Yeah, because you could use. I could share vehicles, could share cell phones. Yeah, okay. But I think at 25. At 24, 25, I'd bought my car. [00:37:59] Speaker A: What was your first car? [00:38:00] Speaker B: It was a Toyota. [00:38:03] Speaker A: Oh, really? [00:38:04] Speaker B: Which one? Those are beautiful. Yeah, I can. Did you go for a road trip [00:38:12] Speaker A: when you got that car or what did you do? Who was your crew that you. [00:38:18] Speaker B: No, I bought it at my usual clue. Drive to Shen Timba. Drink, drink. Because what used to happen before even getting to these cars is that would knock off very late, especially on a Friday when you are producing on a Thursday when you're producing the newspaper for Friday. [00:38:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:35] Speaker B: And so would go to Shen Timber and Thorn park, and you have no money to take you home in Lemas there. So in Shentemba, waiting for the noise from the minibus drivers, the conductors, then you know that it's 05 time to go. Yeah. Because you know. Yeah. So. [00:38:55] Speaker A: So you're Mr. Zambia President. And at that same time, which year is this? [00:39:02] Speaker B: Hey, can I remember the year that must be 99, if I'm not mistaken. [00:39:07] Speaker A: 1999. [00:39:08] Speaker B: 1999. 2000. [00:39:10] Speaker A: Yes. [00:39:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:10] Speaker A: And so at this time, you, you've always been inclined toward political figures. [00:39:20] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, because I. I was on the political desk. [00:39:24] Speaker A: Yes. [00:39:25] Speaker B: My beat was politics. [00:39:27] Speaker A: Yes. [00:39:27] Speaker B: Yeah. So all the political leaders of that time, I would cover them. [00:39:31] Speaker A: Yes. [00:39:32] Speaker B: And I would have the relationship. So what? What? The Post newspaper did something interesting. They had what you used to call a Friday bar. So each Friday when the newspaper is out, there'll be no work, but you come and drink free alcohol. Okay. But you invite all these big guys. Oh, and they looked forward to be invited. Yeah. In fact, that's how I even met former President Edgar was at the Post Bar. Oh, yeah. He was just a lawyer then and attempted to stand in Chawama. So it was a famous Friday bar bride to meet your sources, to know them outside the news. [00:40:10] Speaker A: Okay. [00:40:10] Speaker B: Of the record. [00:40:11] Speaker A: Like a social. [00:40:12] Speaker B: Yes. So, yeah. So I interacted with a number of them then. [00:40:16] Speaker A: Okay. [00:40:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:17] Speaker A: When did you meet former President Rupiah Banda? [00:40:21] Speaker B: It was also during that period because at that time now he was the. The chairman for Foreign Affairs. MCC for Foreign affairs. For UNI in opposition. [00:40:32] Speaker A: Okay. [00:40:33] Speaker B: And at that time, they had a group which was fighting to remove KK out of prison. No, out of unip. [00:40:41] Speaker A: Out of. Or to remove him out. [00:40:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Because he was. He still had a strong arm. [00:40:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:47] Speaker B: And so it's interesting you ask that question. So UNIP went for a convention, a congress, as they used to call it. Who emerged as vice president of Europe was Professor Mbunga. [00:40:59] Speaker A: Professor Munga. [00:41:00] Speaker B: Yeah. So Professor Munga. People don't know, was the vice president of uni. [00:41:04] Speaker A: Yes. [00:41:04] Speaker B: Backed by Arabic. And then now they were attempting to push now Professor Bunga to take over your name. I see. And as you tell. As you can see the graph, that when I started Milo, I've only worked with one. One law firm, and that's Munga Associates with Professor. [00:41:24] Speaker A: I see. [00:41:24] Speaker B: Now you see that the network is always important for future things. [00:41:30] Speaker A: I see. [00:41:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:32] Speaker A: Fast forward. When did arabi become president? [00:41:36] Speaker B: 2008. [00:41:36] Speaker A: 2008, yes. Now I remember. 2008. I was in university, and before former President Levi Manoasa died, we were students. And we had closed, I think, on two occasions because we were trying to get a raise in our meal allowances. And so CB had closed, and he categorically refused to say, I am not giving you an increment. If you want an increment, let your parents give you a stipend on top of what we're giving you. And then after we buried the president, President Banda comes into power through an election. Were you part of that election? [00:42:16] Speaker B: Yes, of course. That's why you found me. I wasn't set up. [00:42:22] Speaker A: So he gets into power. And I remember for us students, 208, we just received an increment of our student allowance, and it came back dated, I think it was three or four months. [00:42:36] Speaker B: We loved rfd, [00:42:39] Speaker A: we love. We made all the noise. Now Dickson Jerry is. After the election is won. Did you have aspirations to be appointed maybe as a Minister of Information, did [00:42:56] Speaker B: you have an expectation to say young boy? I mean, I was just a young boy. I mean 30. 30, 31 years. [00:43:02] Speaker A: Yes. [00:43:02] Speaker B: And. But very ambitious. No, not really. I mean, I went to assist Arabi in that campaign. [00:43:09] Speaker A: Okay. [00:43:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Then there was a little campaign team which he was coordinating with the UK firm. And because I've worked in foreign media, worked for afp, BBC and so on. So it was easy for me to work with these Musungus and whatever are those image builders? I don't know whether I call them image builders, but they are consultants. [00:43:31] Speaker A: Okay. [00:43:31] Speaker B: Every serious political party needs to have. Because they give you different perspective. They are open with you, they don't participate in your tribal issues. [00:43:40] Speaker A: No. Their objective. [00:43:42] Speaker B: Yeah. When they tell you things are not looking good because of 1, 2, 3, you know, so it was a small group. And yeah, I started, you know, managing them in terms of being a go between. And so come elections, he won. I. I moved on with my life. Okay. Until I got a call from him, I think a week later asking me why I was not reporting for work. Yeah, I mean, I've said this on a number of occasions, that I started working without a letter because he told me it was a letter. If they can't give you a letter, you know, I'm the later. So that's how I started working then. Things had to be worked backwards. Sewn in. And the day I was sewn in, in fact, I almost refused to be sown in. Because you received a different position. Yeah, another typical dribble. That's how I was sworn in twice as Chief Analyst. Then a few weeks later, I was sworn in as special assistant to the President. [00:44:44] Speaker A: How close is a special assistant to the President in his day to day operations? [00:44:48] Speaker B: I mean, look, I. I've already said this. I've worked in that establishment. It's all interpersonal relations. I mean, you can be a special assistant without a relationship with the President. You can have a special assistant or a junior who has a special relationship with the President. It's all about international relationship. It's not the title. No, no, no, no. I've said this. It's not. Yes, I was close. I had access. And that access had nothing really to do with the position I had. [00:45:25] Speaker A: Okay. [00:45:25] Speaker B: I had access because I developed a personal relationship which was beyond Titus. So I would walk in his room, I would walk in his bedroom, you know, and he reciprocated to treat me like I'm his son. So if somebody else had come in my position and had left him, they would not have had that kind of relationship. Then there would be, you know, official brokerages. You can't, you know, enter the house or you can't call him around. You can't outcome anytime I want. [00:45:58] Speaker A: What, what, what kind of a man was he? So I, I, I met him on two occasions. But as former president, I have this beautiful photo of me. There's KK here and then there's Arabi next, like, so I've framed it, the three presidents, Arabic, and of course, myself. So what kind of a man was. Because when you look at that photo, I was holding Dr. Gekki's hand, but guess who was smiling? Doctor, what kind of a man was he? Just because you had that relationship away from, like, what kind of man was, [00:46:37] Speaker B: you know, just an, a caring parent. [00:46:41] Speaker A: Okay. [00:46:41] Speaker B: I mean, he cared about everything around him than himself. Yeah. So the first thing, we even nicknamed him ten Tiriye. He believed everybody must eat, whether it's a gardener, whether it's a bodyguard, you would call them, come and eat on this table. And so it was that kind of a person who, when he sees a driver, you ask you, why have you not called the driver to come and eat? Driver Simone too. Yeah. So he was that kind of, you know, a father. [00:47:12] Speaker A: Didn't that get him into trouble? If I remember correctly, when he became president, it's like, if I remember correctly, he got like, all his children, all his grandchildren, they went to sit him four. I think there was something that. Yes. [00:47:27] Speaker B: I mean, first and foremost, I've always said one thing that people don't understand Arabi or they never understood him. He always had holidays with his family. [00:47:35] Speaker A: Even before, before, you know, [00:47:40] Speaker B: the media then painted him like this retiree old farmer suffering in Chipata. [00:47:47] Speaker A: Now he has come into. [00:47:48] Speaker B: Yeah, Arab V was among the creme de la creme of the Zambian youngsters, the Vijays, the Alexander Chikwande and so on. Being appointed into ambassadorial position at the age of 25, 26. You know, he was ambassador in New York, ambassador in Washington, ambassador in Egypt, CEO for Nambour, Minister of Mines, Governor of Lusaka. You know, he had a good life. Even in his retirement, he did Philips, whatever. I remember one day it took me around Kabulonga, showing me houses. He had properties, he had companies. It was not like a pauper. Yeah. That's why you're so comfortable. That's why you saw almost all his children went abroad for school. Even after unipos out in 1991. How did he manage to pay for all the school fees? Up to. No, he opted to go to Chipotle. Not that he was a pauper. [00:48:43] Speaker A: I see. Yeah, that's, that's, that's good clarity because I remember posting. No, look, he has picked all his family. I'm going to eat our money now. If you look at his presidency. If we look at his presidency, I was, I was, I was reading on some articles one of the things that he did in 2011, this was Zambia's. This was Youth Day on 12th March. And that year, I think was designated as an international youth year. Okay. He, he highly spoke about education. I would like to know from an inside perspective, I haven't read your book, what his attitude was toward education. [00:49:27] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's a very good and important point. So when KK appointed the youngsters to go into foreign service, most of them didn't have education and whatever, but UNIP had that policy of taking the young coders, unlike the cuddles we have then. Cutters were fighting for scholarships to go and study. [00:49:52] Speaker A: I like that. [00:49:52] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, they were fighting for scholarships. Yes. They're not interested in. Yes, they were the most violent. Yeah, Cutters then the UNIPI one, the most violent. You know, but they also appreciated education, maybe because KK also was a teacher and you wanted them to be educated. [00:50:13] Speaker A: Say that again. [00:50:14] Speaker B: So there were scholarships, which most of them went to. That is why you see that Arabi went to university in Ethiopia. So his education started in Ethiopia. [00:50:27] Speaker A: In Ethiopia. Okay. [00:50:28] Speaker B: Then got a scholarship to go to Lund in Sweden. So his first degree in economics is actually from Lund. Okay. In Sweden. And while there he was able to put up a number of friends and those who came below him is for instance, former Minister of Finance Alexander Chikwanda. Left the politics in Zambia to go and do his economics degree at Lund in Sweden. Former Minister of Defense, longest serving in Zimbabwe, Dr. Siddi Semika. Left Zimbabwe into Zambia, used the Zambian connection to go and join Arabi and everybody in Sweden to go and study. They believed in education than being in a position. [00:51:13] Speaker A: I see. [00:51:13] Speaker B: So they relinquished their position and went to study. Came back. Yeah. And that's another thing. They came back. Arabi still left his government position and went to do his masters in Cambridge. Oh, yeah. So he was the first Zambian president to have with a master's degree. Yeah. So he went to Cambridge. Yeah. Studies the economy. Yeah. So they put value in Education. And if there's a person who believed in education is Arabic. And that is why if you saw even his team, I mean, I used to say that embarrassingly so I was the least educated in the team at State House. I mean, he had PhDs around him. They are Dr. Sitinga, Dr. Chigunta, Dr. Chembe, you know, and you come to you now you are Dickson Jerry without a doctor. Yeah. So he believed in education and he supported a lot of scholarships. And one of the things they ever did, and quite a lot of young people can attest to that, that wherever he traveled, especially to European countries, China or other Asian countries, the first request you would make to these countries is scholarship for the young people. And you would specifically say, I want them in the field of agriculture, veterinary medicine and whatever. And quite a number of young people during his presidency went to be trained. And that's what I'm saying. This is what we should be seeing cadres who are of the hunger for education. [00:52:52] Speaker A: Yes. [00:52:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And because KK provided that. And this is so they are a good example of that generation that they could leave a government job to go and study so they can improve and come back as, you know, educated people. And I'm looking forward to be seeing political parties having a party structure for young people which provide a platform for education. [00:53:16] Speaker A: Okay. [00:53:16] Speaker B: That's who are just insulting each other, stoning each other, you know, fighting to be in control of markets and so on. [00:53:23] Speaker A: Yes. And plots. [00:53:25] Speaker B: You must show that if you belong to a youth wing of political party, you have access to education. And that way you have a cadre of uneducated, of educated youngsters, because then they will take over from you. And so we need to give credit to KK that he provided that platform. That's. [00:53:42] Speaker A: That's beautiful. In one of the speech. I don't know if he used to handle his speeches and all those things. I remember what I was reading on here. He did mention that. That is 2011. 2011. Yes. There was an article that was done on him to say, president Banda said, as we celebrate the start of a new school year, I urge all Zambian young people to help in our quest to build a stronger Zambia. You are our future. By taking advantage of your schooling, you make this country great. That, that, that I loved. When you look at his, his presidency with regards to education, how would you some or rate his success with regard education? [00:54:31] Speaker B: Well, I mean, I, I think if there's a sector which he, he really, really put much in terms of whatever the education, you know, so many Schools, I mean, everybody just here, nearby, there's Horizon School. Yeah. That came as a result of his trip to Becky and lobbying the government. [00:54:49] Speaker A: The Marife. [00:54:50] Speaker B: Yes. That was a direct intervention with him to bring all the schools here. And he gave us an increment. Yeah. A number of children who went on scholarships, especially in China, quite a number in Bulgaria, in Romania, wherever I had an opportunity, even from friends, rich friends. He would say, yeah, you're doing business in Zambia, but I'll give you five kids to sponsor. Yeah. And he did that network even after he left president because he valued education. And that's why some of us, we got challenged to keep on going back to school. Why? Because we saw what education can do. I mean, I tell you that I was the least educated among the colleagues in State House. Yeah. I had PhDs. I was working with PhDs. Other than two, three degrees degrees like Ashamba, that was the team I was working with. So you ended up now forcing yourself to get back to education and making sure that you have the credentials that matches you. And by the way, he kept on telling me why you need education. Because he was saying when you reach at a stage of working in State House, you become unemployable locally. Yeah. Because which. Which company can employ you. Yeah. So he was saying your next step, you should be eyeing, if you have to any. Get any job, you should be eyeing international organization, the World Bank, UN and so on. Minimum in these organizations is master's degree. But a PhD is an added advantage for you to get it a job with your profile. Having worked in the presidency, he used to advise me that. [00:56:36] Speaker A: Okay. [00:56:37] Speaker B: And so if you see me going back to school, which I've always done, is that I have this map I'm looking at and I can tell you where I can land on that map. Because of education. [00:56:50] Speaker A: Because of education. [00:56:51] Speaker B: So I. So I take a different view from those who say you can't go to school or go and get more degrees when you reach a certain age at [00:57:03] Speaker A: the age of 40. [00:57:04] Speaker B: No, no, I'll tell you, I. I am back in school. [00:57:09] Speaker A: You're back in school? [00:57:09] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm 50. I'm back. [00:57:11] Speaker A: What are you, what are you studying? [00:57:12] Speaker B: I'm doing a PhD. A PhD in sports law. Oh, okay. Yeah. [00:57:17] Speaker A: Okay. [00:57:17] Speaker B: What are that going to do to me is that there are so many opportunities, opportunities which are opening up in sports arbitration, which is an area which was never heard of. They are looking for seasoned arbitrators 60 years and above be sitting resolving these international disputes to do Sports. Sitting on international committee commissions on sports and so. And so forth. How do I enter that market? I can only enter that market with this PhD. With this Masters. Yeah. So that when I retire, I'll be sitting on a number of boards where my income can come there without necessarily traveling, just sitting on my laptop, attending a board meeting. So. So every person has his own, you know, strategy on how to get there. You cannot have a blanket, you know, kind of system. Yeah. So if you need to do a PhD, even at 60, do it. Do it. Because you may be doing it for a particular reason. I have two friends, former Permanent secretaries. They are way above my age. They are studying for a master's degree. Degrees. Yeah. Because they know where they want to be. Okay. Yeah. So always, if you see somebody is studying for something, pay attention. They're probably looking at a certain. Mandela only became a lawyer after 30. [00:58:48] Speaker A: After 30 years. [00:58:49] Speaker B: Yeah. So there's no. In fact, if you see, a number of lawyers now have been called to the bar. They're in their 40s. [00:58:56] Speaker A: They are seniors. Yeah. [00:58:57] Speaker B: Yes. But that does not mean that they won't make it. Yeah. There's no retirement age in law. Oh, yeah. There's no retirement. So judges retired 60, 70, but you can still practice law at 89. [00:59:12] Speaker A: 18, 90. Okay. [00:59:13] Speaker B: So people do this thing for a particular reason. He may say, you know what? In my older years, when I'm slowing down, I want to run a law firm. So for me to run a law firm, I need to be a qualified lawyer. So I need to get a law degree. Yes. I need to go to Zra to be called to the bar. Then I can now run a law firm. [00:59:34] Speaker A: I see. [00:59:34] Speaker B: Yeah. So don't blanket it. [00:59:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:59:37] Speaker B: Always understand why people do certain things. [00:59:41] Speaker A: Yeah. I like the way you put it. Don't blanket it. [00:59:44] Speaker B: No. [00:59:45] Speaker A: You almost has to. Like you're reading my script here by questioning. What was the best advice that Arabi gave you as DJ? [00:59:54] Speaker B: Two 1. Education. 2. Investment or investment. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He taught me these two things. [01:00:04] Speaker A: Okay. [01:00:05] Speaker B: One, Baba, go back to school. Baba. You have to improve on your credentials. This world we're entering in is becoming competitive. My PayPal nan0 go together. You see, If I recommend you to a colleague, they should first look at your cv. Wow. Wow. That is why I keep on improving myself. [01:00:30] Speaker A: I see. [01:00:31] Speaker B: When I left status, I had a diploma in journalism, had a degree in law. I then went to there. I then got a master's in intellectual property from Zimbabwe. I then got another master's Degree in Human Rights. I then went back to school. I got a postgraduate diploma in Legislative Drafting. I then went back to school. I became a fellow of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators. I then went back to school. I became an executive Master Holder in Sports Law. I then went back to school. Why am I going back to school? Is to improve myself, is to be relevant to the development. Huh? You see me, I go and argue. Spartan. Yeah, you see me go and argue. I think this bill, there's a problem here because I am a trend drafter on that one. [01:01:31] Speaker A: Mr. Jerry, I have seen you participate in directing policy and making submissions to parliamentarians. You've been in all these commissions and you've made great submissions. Have you done any on education? [01:01:51] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I, I, I, I made some submission when the curriculum was changing. [01:01:56] Speaker A: Okay, because, because I am making an appeal to you because I'm passionate about education. [01:02:03] Speaker B: Well, I mean, I, I am too. And that's why I was saying our education system needs a little bit of tutoring. [01:02:09] Speaker A: Where, Mr. J. Yes, we want to pick your mind because everyone watching this, once we cast it in stone, the conversation should ripple. And so that the next time we are sitting we should say, look, solutions are already there. People like DJs have said it. What do you think needs to really be tilted to give us that economic advantage to make this country great? [01:02:30] Speaker B: You know what is worrying me is I don't know where this notion has come from that we need more universities. I don't know where this notion is coming from that we need more degrees which are theory oriented. A developing countries needs more vocational training. Thank you. We are killing our trade schools. All trade schools now have been turned into universities. And I'm saying, no, we need more people who are practical. Yesterday I had lunch with a colleague who was telling me how plumbers now make more money than degree holders, than master's degree holders. Because there's shortages of plumbers in Europe, in Asia, especially Saudi Arabia. You remember there was a story about the welders who couldn't even fix the, the color box, whatever code box we brought for consumption. [01:03:37] Speaker A: Yes. [01:03:38] Speaker B: Why? Yes, because our trade schools, everybody wants to have a degree in a theoretical environment. Who want to be lawyers, want to be economists, want to be social development, whatever. We are living out the engine of the economy. We need to invest. Remember that? Those days, what is this? Rwanda? Trade. Yes. These guys, they would dismantle a radio and put it together. You know, they would literally repair any refrigerator. Yes, we, we are having those people leaving, getting into These jobs or this training, which are theoretical law, economics, development studies, we are leaving the engine and I think we need to get back. KK was not that confused to have invested more in trades and vocational training. That is what we need. We need people to be repairing our cars. We need people to be setting. We need bricklayers. I mean, now we are getting bricklayers from Zimbabwe. [01:04:54] Speaker A: Zimbabwe. [01:04:55] Speaker B: I grow tobacco in Chipata. To get guys to do your tobacco, you need to get Malawi. Yeah. Because our people are not being trained in the right fields. [01:05:10] Speaker A: I see. [01:05:10] Speaker B: We need to get back to nautic. And now we are turning them into universities. Yeah, yeah. So we're turning them into. [01:05:17] Speaker A: So maybe perhaps we are commercializing education so much that its true effect is not being actualized. So it's more in the title than the skill. Yes. [01:05:25] Speaker B: So for me, we need to go to skills development and that skills development starts from schools. You remember? I don't know whether you can remember in my time. [01:05:34] Speaker A: Yes, I do. Yes, I do. [01:05:35] Speaker B: Dk, Hughcliffe. They were technical schools. Yeah. But even us at Monari, all of us, we had to take a course which was related to skills. So either you are in technical drawing, then there will be carpentry, you know, there will be welding, fabric, whatever, metal fabricators. There will be agriculture. And you have maybe two, three beds of your cabbages, which you have to grow from the start and the end and sell. You know, we need to get that. You know, we need to get back to the skills development. You cannot develop a country with just theories. We need the guys to do the work. The Chinese are doing the work. Yeah. I remember sitting with Arabi then as president, there was a problem in, I think a riot, which was caused because bricklayers in Zambia thought they were being overworked by this Chinese company. And so we wanted to understand them the many cause of the problem. So a Zambian waker bricklayer starts work at 8. [01:06:50] Speaker A: 8. [01:06:52] Speaker B: Between 8 and 12, two or three of his colleagues must be cooking Shima. Yeah. [01:07:01] Speaker A: So [01:07:04] Speaker B: two workers are not there. Productivity. Yeah. So 12 to 13 is lunchtime. Everybody calms down, they go and eat, then they get back 17 hours they've knocked off. Regardless of what work has been done, the Chinese. Then at Luansha, your work as a bricklayer, when you report was measured by the number of blocks you lay. So if it's 3,000 blocks, what you do in between 8 to 17 is none of your supervisor's business. It is that that day you must lay 3,000. [01:07:50] Speaker A: You have a target. [01:07:51] Speaker B: Yes. So we need to get to that. I have seen it. I was building a house where the Zambian bricklayers are there. The Zimbabweans are guys that are doing my sittings. These two boys from Zimbabwe, they'll come with a mazoi juice with bread and they would log in in their little exercise book. They're up doing the thing. They'll come down for 20 minutes to have their drink. To have their drink and their bread and their app. No supervisor. The two of them, they work together and they would finish the work because they need to move to the next project. My guys will spend the first two, three hours discussing politics, discussing what's happening in the economy. Football. Exactly. Manual, as you know. Then by the time they are finished, time to eat. Yeah. So we need to start adjusting our work culture. If we have to be competitive. [01:08:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:58] Speaker B: And we ought to be competitive in our country. And the education system must be tailored to that experience. Now, I'll tell you, you asked me about this issue. What would you want to change? So when I was at Matero Boys Primary School, from grade one to grade seven, I never got a number one position. I was always number two. There was a friend who never got any single position except number one. When we wrote the grade seven exams, he felt. He felt, yes, I passed. [01:09:44] Speaker A: Why did you fail? [01:09:45] Speaker B: Well, because of your education system. If I tell you he's a commander on the bus stop [01:09:56] Speaker A: today. [01:09:57] Speaker B: Yes, he was a conductor, bus conductor, blah, blah. But now he's a commander, like. [01:10:01] Speaker A: Yes. [01:10:01] Speaker B: Coordinating those. I'm in touch with him. Yeah. Now that's the reality of your education system. That one exam can actually mess up your entire career, despite your brains. Yeah. Because we use examination as a measure of intelligence. [01:10:20] Speaker A: Intelligence and progression. [01:10:21] Speaker B: Here is a person who probably got the stuff right by Sherlock. Multiple choice. Yes. Maybe PHB pencils and so on. Oh, yeah. Now, why would that friend of mine be on the street when, if we had actually supported him, could have been probably one of the top professors in the country? He used to teach me mathematics. Yeah, that's your education system. We don't have a continuous assessment at a lower level. If we are to use the continuous assessment, you would have said, but this guy, ever since from grade one to seven records, he's never gotten any position less than one. [01:11:09] Speaker A: So could there have been an option of having him do a supplementary assessment? [01:11:13] Speaker B: That's why in university we do supplementary, isn't it? That's why universities, we do continuous assessments, because the Senate, when they sit, they'll say, but there's no way this student was test a assignment A could get [01:11:32] Speaker A: a D later on. [01:11:34] Speaker B: They even call a lecturer. Can you explain this discrepancy? You see, that's why university education is easy. Because there's peer counter check within the system that the lecturer has no final say. The senate will even say so many students have failed. Can you moderate? That doesn't happen at grade 7 level. So how many of similar students have been thrown on the street because there's no moderation on their thing? Because nobody has ever checked their continuous assessment from grade one to seven. So that's how unfair our education system is. Is that exam is determinant whether to proceed or not to proceed. [01:12:18] Speaker A: Okay. [01:12:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:12:20] Speaker A: We were going to wind up. We've already done an hour. You, you are a parent and you've got kids. You did an article that made me reach out. Because you were talking about something that was close to my heart. You're talking about quality education and I know there's some people that disagreed with you and all those things. What do you look out for in a school when you are aware choosing that's good to take your kids to [01:12:50] Speaker B: for you like I know it's a controversial topic. [01:12:55] Speaker A: Yes. [01:12:55] Speaker B: Yeah. But I like saying it anyway. If all of us have money would want to take our kids to the top schools because that's the only investment you can do. [01:13:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:13:04] Speaker B: I am lucky that I went through a public school. By that time there was good public schools. Public schools. Now I not in good shape. So you can't compete a kid from Yakutwa school in Chipata with a kid at Nkwazi here. Grade 1. Grade 1. The other one has a tablet. Even at school when you arrive there's an iPad. The other one doesn't even know what an iPad is. And you want them to write the same exams. That's your education system. That is your education system. You won that kid at Nyakutua who's walking from a village nearby to go and sit in that classroom to write the same exam with a kid who has just been dropped by a car at Mkwazi there's a computer room with an air conditioner and whatever. That's your education system. Okay. Yeah. But if you are a parent given an opportunity, you would want your kid at work at Tibetan Kwazi. So it's because we have different means. We can't take our kids to the schools would ordinarily want them to go to. Yes, probably. If my father had money wouldn't first and foremost, if my father had Money I would not probably take me to Monadi. He would have probably taken me to Europe. Had my colleagues in my thing, they went to Europe, UK and so on. So call it education. There's no substitute. Now this world is going to artificial intelligence. It's developing whatever. Our kids must match up with the kids in Europe to. [01:14:38] Speaker A: To compete at the global exact stage. [01:14:41] Speaker B: And that's why I'm saying we need to invest in education. If every way. The biggest budget should go into two things. Education, health. Education, health. Education, health. I agree with you. We must be even exporting educated people to go and work elsewhere. We need to get in that space. So the narrowing of the inequalities is the first thing. [01:15:08] Speaker A: Okay. [01:15:08] Speaker B: And so yes, when I'm looking at a school, it's an all rounder. I told you that I am what I am because of Monadi. Yes, not academics. I was exposed to my friends who are coming from the rich family. I was exposed to my friends who are coming from middle class families. I was exposed to my friends who are coming from poor families. That itself is an education. To sit in one classroom and compete. Yeah, the interaction itself is part of the education that at break time this guy is opening his lunchbox. Others are going to, we used to call it Zanzibar market Zanzi to go and buy fritters and whatever. Others have nothing. So the ability to share when you have the ability to network, the ability to have a friend, it's part of the education. Education is not just those A plus. A plus. It is the environment you are in. It makes you grow. Sports is one of the things which makes a child develop. [01:16:15] Speaker A: So do you look for that in school when you're picking. [01:16:17] Speaker B: I'll tell you, my. One of my sons is just at a boarding school and he ended up there. Ordinarily I would not have taken him there, but I have because he's a swimmer. So I was looking at a school which has a strong swimming program. Program. I had to sit down with a coach of the national team because my son was swimming is swimming for the national team is the one who recommended. If you're looking at the school with a strong swimming academy, it is this one. Okay, so you're looking for sports, develops the mind. Now my son, you find is playing kick, is in hockey, he's in swimming, is in football, he's in rugby, he's in chess. That developed a mind. Yeah, I did everything. I was in karate, I was in judo, football, I was in boxing. It develops you. So I look at the sports, I look at the academic, but also just the environment. Yeah. What manners would the kid pick up? Mind you, our children spend more time at school than with us parents. And we modern parents are so busy. [01:17:28] Speaker A: They are so busy. [01:17:29] Speaker B: So we leave this particular assignment to teachers, especially those of us who have taken some of our children to the boarding school. We see them once a month, one month rather. [01:17:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:17:43] Speaker B: Three months they are gone. So who is looking after them there? What manners are they picking? So that's why, you see, Muslims would say, I want to take my child to the Muslim school. Catholics are strong. I want to take. Because that is part of the developing of a church. I told you that. Partly. I am also developed because of the access I had at Matero Boys Secondary School because the Marianist brothers, those Catholics allowed us in and they developed us. [01:18:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:18:16] Speaker B: I first held my first locket of tennis at Matero Boys Primary School. Where I went there was no such sport. I first held a badminton racket at Material Boys. I first encountered a chessboard at Material Boys Secondary School when I was going to Monari. I was a little bit developed in certain areas of sport. Yeah. Then of course I got developed at Monadi because I had a strong sports background with a full time Indian man, Mr. Soy, as a PE teacher. Specifically for PE not these schools where a PE teacher is doing it as a. By the way. No, for us it was a full time teacher. [01:19:04] Speaker A: What is paid for. [01:19:05] Speaker B: Yes. So that's why I'm very active in sports now. It's very interesting. When my son finishes my second born, when he finishes high school. [01:19:15] Speaker A: Yes. [01:19:16] Speaker B: And he wanted to go to study and he said I wanted to do. He wanted to do sports. I thought, what's that? [01:19:24] Speaker A: Taking after his father. [01:19:25] Speaker B: Yeah. I said, no, but I am a lawyer, I'm a journalist. Yes. I still do sports and probably I'm one of the few who sits on a number of boards in sports, both local and international. I didn't study sports. And for him we'll say, yeah, but dad, what makes you think that you are doing it right? Yeah, he's just finished now his degree. When I have an interaction with him, that's when I realized, oh my goodness, this is how behind we are. Yeah. When there's a team being prepared. So ask a question. Have you checked with us? Have they done this? Who is the psychologist for the team? Who has done the dieting for the team? Have you checked the individual assessment on their blood levels? Have you done these? Have you done their physique? So he, he Does a comprehensive kind of guide when you are taking a [01:20:21] Speaker A: team to any competitive phaser for the Zambian team or. [01:20:26] Speaker B: Well, I mean he asked me question like for instance, so there's a team going to. To Wascon for instance. Have you done this? Have you done. Have you done that? Did you see that there? And also this business of, you know, have you been to a. A camp sometimes for especially football. [01:20:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:20:44] Speaker B: You find you just put a buffet and everybody eat the same food. Yeah. Son Shima beef stew and so on. They react different, see because you have to maintain weight for certain players and so on and so forth. So could that be a reason? [01:21:01] Speaker A: Sorry to catch you. [01:21:02] Speaker B: So sports science now it become a big thing. So you go to Manu Arsenal. There are guys who are employed to study players behavior, diet to work with a player on, you know. Yeah. So could it be a reason why [01:21:17] Speaker A: maybe it would be hard even for us to really compete. Maybe even the for example World cup [01:21:22] Speaker B: football to reach that top tier of [01:21:26] Speaker A: football and win it. [01:21:27] Speaker B: Look at how our teams were breaking down at 80th minutes, 18 minutes. I've already said why. Yeah. So it must be studied. That's why they. Sports science. [01:21:37] Speaker A: The science itself. [01:21:38] Speaker B: Yes, science. In fact there's a bigger component in medicine. So that's the course my son did because he believes there's something my argument was. And that's probably the problem we have. I was so what job are you going to do? Yeah. So probably we always link education to a job, but not actually always. Yeah. I am unemployable but I'm still going to school, isn't it? I'm not looking for a job. Yeah, but education gives you confidence. [01:22:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:22:11] Speaker B: You know, you can drop me anywhere where they are heads of states, kings, whatever. I won't shake honestly. I'll be there and I'll speak, I can even speak my mind. Because of the confidence that education gives you. Yeah. So not necessarily that we go to school so that you can have a big job. No, we gain knowledge and we need that knowledge for so many things in life. [01:22:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:22:35] Speaker B: The way I react to a situation in anywhere whether there's a fight or whatever is different from a person who has never gone to school. Why? Because your mind processes things different because of education. [01:22:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:22:50] Speaker B: So you may not see the direction a benefit of doing physics. Yeah. You may even question why am I doing physics at school. But the day to day activity is physics. I start my car. That's physics. Yeah. [01:23:08] Speaker A: There's a really motor there. [01:23:10] Speaker B: Yes. When I'm in, in, in, in, in on the road and somebody his kid is running. How I will behave. There will be some calculations. [01:23:23] Speaker A: Yes. [01:23:23] Speaker B: If I stop now, the car is going to overturn and whatever. So education sometimes is not like. Because you did this course. Therefore it should give you money. No, it helps you process several things around you in. In life. That's what education is about. [01:23:37] Speaker A: Wonderful. You be. I know you believe in education. We have to wind up now Mr. Jerry, if you were to leave a legacy because you're a man who has influence in this country and we appreciate the work that. That you do in the spheres of operations that you have, what would you like to be remembered for? The young DJ who was troublesome and not troublesome, but vicious and confident in standing up to leaders. A journalist who sticks to ethics and, and that has got into somebody who has worked in. In the. In the highest office of the land next to a president. And I. And I know you, you have your own businesses that you run in. In your legal space. What would be your legacy that you would want say the stood a man ddj and this is what we remember him for. [01:24:35] Speaker B: Well, I mean for me, he is a boy from Matero. He just enjoyed what he's been doing. But more importantly, he wants to see more people get uplifted. A guy who wanted to see people go to school and that's more passionate for me. I encourage people to go to school because education is the best equalizer. With education, everything is possible. [01:25:01] Speaker A: Very possible. [01:25:02] Speaker B: And so that's why you see, when I'm speaking to the kids, I tell them look here, the boy from Matero, from Morofea. I worked into status. Now if you look at me, you know, I for instance, sit on the board of UNESCO IMC in South Korea, representing the entire Africa. Oh, you do? Yeah. So a boy from Matero. So it's possible by the way, and this I always examine. Zambia has had seven presidents. [01:25:30] Speaker A: Yes. [01:25:31] Speaker B: None of them come from a rich family. None, none of. [01:25:38] Speaker A: They all come from Jade, Manawasa, Arabi. [01:25:46] Speaker B: They all come from humble background and in fact more villages. Yeah. SATA from Pika, Arabi from Jap. [01:25:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Kk. [01:25:59] Speaker B: So if you see. So it's possible. [01:26:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:26:03] Speaker B: Look at even the list of ministers from independence to date. Probably 80, 90%. Yeah. Come from humble backgrounds. [01:26:13] Speaker A: The education has been an equalizer for them. [01:26:15] Speaker B: Yes. For them to get there because they need to have basics of, you know. Yeah. And that's why I'm telling him in this cadas. Don't be happy to be called a card. A card that's turning people no, go to education. Because if you don't have education, you still remain a commander the bus stop. But if you put education, you can find yourself being a D.C. or being a P.S. of the. [01:26:37] Speaker A: So upgrade have meaningful. [01:26:39] Speaker B: So your involvement in politics can uplift you. It's an added advantage. But you must have paper because that's what happens with us politicians. When this CAD has supporters. Supporters. We win. Then you say, then you don't. We don't have. I mean. I'll tell you one interesting story. When Arabi was president, he. There was a friend of his from UNIP supported him. [01:27:07] Speaker A: And so. [01:27:08] Speaker B: And so when he brought a cv he asked me to look at it. Yeah. [01:27:12] Speaker A: So he. [01:27:13] Speaker B: He had this standard that at least degree and above. And so I told him no. So it's always good to upgrade, you know, And I encourage people to upgrade. You don't upgrade because you are looking for a promotion in the office. No, you upgrade because there's also one classical case in one of the defense forces a clinical officer joined. You know, they join us in. In fact, he joined as a. Is it a clinical. So below that as a soldier. Meaning non commissioned. [01:28:03] Speaker A: Non commissioned, yes. [01:28:04] Speaker B: Yeah. So he's just an ordinary. He's upgraded himself to a medical doctor. So they're failing to deal with that situation. And I know sooner than later they'll find a way of upgrading him to. Because he is a medical doctor. He took himself to school. Yeah, but it didn't take himself to school because he wanted to be commissioned. No, he realized that as a clinical officer I needed to. No, not the ones the clinical officers with degrees, those diplomats. So he upgraded. He upgraded. He upgraded. He's now a medical doctor. Probably is looking for an exit that when he leaves after experience he can join a hospital or he can set up his own practice and so on. So opportunities only favors a special education. Yes. In Zambia there's this argument such and such a person, the school dropouts. [01:29:00] Speaker A: Yes, but he's. [01:29:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:29:01] Speaker A: Can even employ you. That's what. [01:29:03] Speaker B: But give me the percentages of you. Okay, Give me the percentages of the DJs who exists from material who made it without education. So I can tell you, former Chief Justice Mambirima, she became a Chief justice because of education. The current Chief Justice, Mumba Marila from material. She became a Chief justice because of education. Dixon Jerry became a chief special assistant, the President of Education. Without education, I would not have been in that office. [01:29:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:29:30] Speaker B: You know, from Mattel So on any scale, education wins. [01:29:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:29:37] Speaker B: So let's not cheat ourselves that because one person has succeeded with lucky, it's gonna work. Even business. To run a business and entrepreneur, you need education. How are you going to supervise your managers if you don't know simple bookkeeping. [01:29:56] Speaker A: Bookkeeping. [01:29:57] Speaker B: Yeah. That is why the other students when want to be a lawyer, they put you in a basic account. Because if you want to go and run a law firm, you must know at least credit whatever. I should know Tax obligation. You must know now. It is a requirement. Yeah. So even you, when you are running a business, one of the little thing you need is a little bit of education to understand. Yeah. You have to understand profit and loss. Yeah. Without that you're gone. [01:30:27] Speaker A: I have. We have to close. I know that he's giving me a timer, but I had one question and this has to do with something that I think you're passionate about. You like you ish you. You like writing about land issues. And will I be wrong to think in your practice you deal with a lot of land issues or you just pull out those for the. For the purpose of educating the masses. [01:30:54] Speaker B: Mostly I do it for educational purposes. Now remember I told you that I was an intern during my gap year? [01:31:01] Speaker A: Yes. [01:31:01] Speaker B: With the Lucy Choney at Civic Education. [01:31:04] Speaker A: Yes. [01:31:04] Speaker B: That was her niche. [01:31:07] Speaker A: Okay. [01:31:08] Speaker B: Going around with us to communities to teach them about land lights. [01:31:12] Speaker A: Okay. [01:31:13] Speaker B: I developed that. Now it is worse than the time we are doing it. [01:31:18] Speaker A: Really? [01:31:18] Speaker B: Yes, because everybody now is looking for land. And so all the scammers have entered this business. And so you go to court, you go to land tribunal. It is title on title. It is. The council has given five people one piece of land and it's chaotic. And so I'm passionate that one of the areas this country must deal with it is land given an opportunity. That's an area which needs total reform information. Yes. [01:31:48] Speaker A: There's that information also meaning maybe changing who is in the system. [01:31:52] Speaker B: Exactly. How can a title be given on a title then we. [01:31:58] Speaker A: We take the people who bought to. To court, but the people who are issuing it are not taken to court. [01:32:04] Speaker B: And. And so that's an area, I think, because, you know, I have this belief that each one of us actually can have a piece of zombies. Yeah. Each one of us, we can have a piece of zombie. At the rate we are going, we'll be fighting because now we are buying land from the Chinese, we are buying land from the Somalians. We are joining. Why? Because the system does not favor you and me to get that land, it favors those with money. But land should never, never. God stopped making countries many years back. [01:32:37] Speaker A: True. [01:32:38] Speaker B: Yeah, he stopped. Yeah. [01:32:40] Speaker A: So we have to be prudent in the way. [01:32:42] Speaker B: There is not going to be another Zambia with a bigger map. What we have is what we have. So we must utilize that resource very well. So that you and me, our children, our grandchildren should have access to that piece of land. Yeah. At the rate we are going, we can end up being slaves in our own. [01:33:02] Speaker A: In our own country. [01:33:02] Speaker B: Yeah. And also it's an issue which we young people are not aggressive about. If you look at your age, there's a village you come from. [01:33:17] Speaker A: Yes. [01:33:18] Speaker B: How many of you have ever visited your village? 1. If you look at your age, there's a chief. How many of you have gotten in touch with that chief? Because ideally those chief village are not decoration. How do you make it realistically that I come from chief Sairee in Chimpinga and Chipata? I must identify my ancestral land. Because it means either my great grandfather was there. [01:33:57] Speaker A: Was there? Yes. [01:33:58] Speaker B: If I can't trace that route to my land or to my ancestral land. I need to make a request to the chief. I come from here. Can I have a portion of the land that's how. Traditional land. Yes. So how many of us are going to our villages to reclaim our. We all want to live in Lusaka. We all want to live in six months when you can go to Chipata and get yourself a thousand hectares and start growing your tobacco, your maize and whatever while you're working here. And so that's a crusade I've started. But identify your chief. If you don't know the chief, I can help you through my system to get to that chief, to that village. But you must personally drive there and see. [01:34:48] Speaker A: Yes. [01:34:49] Speaker B: So that this land can be given to you away from Lusaka. We are too much into Lusaka. Getting 30 by 20 and fighting over there. Yes. When you can get a southern hectares in the bush. [01:35:02] Speaker A: Sign me up on that one, please. I need to go to Lundazi Definite. And, and, and, and so we must start this drive. Yeah. [01:35:12] Speaker B: Let's go back to the villages so that we can identify the villages and get them land. Because if you don't get the land, those to my headmen conniving with friends, they will be giving to Chinese because Chinese are going to the. To the. To the villages. Yes. You people are here enjoying. You want to eat ice cream every day? Yeah. Ice cream will follow us in Lundazi. Ice cream will follow us. Ice cream will follow us. In. Yeah, I'll tell you one as a way of winding up. [01:35:45] Speaker A: Yes, the last word. [01:35:46] Speaker B: There was an advert which came out in northwestern for land by the council river frontage, Zambez. None of you were interested? [01:36:01] Speaker A: No. [01:36:02] Speaker B: I'm probably the only one so far whom I know from the list who applied from Lusaka. I have no business of Northwest. You get it? But I saw that Zambezi river frontage and in fact the description was there's even a beach. I'll get it. I'll speculate with it. [01:36:24] Speaker A: Yes. [01:36:24] Speaker B: How? Sell it. [01:36:25] Speaker A: I even have an idea of what you can do on it. [01:36:27] Speaker B: Exactly. [01:36:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:36:29] Speaker B: There was a similar advert in Iruango at fellow Few of us applied. When I say a few, you put all things together. 10 kwacha. What? What? What? It comes like 15,000 quadra for a 5 acre. Yeah. So why are we not applying? But if there's an advent that there is land in. Oh God does everybody will be fighting for that piece of land. When we can get land from your village. Look at our own president. HH is in Amwala. Go to the outskirts. That's what we should be doing. Let's go in the outskirts. Let's go in the outskirts to get land. So one of the things Arabi did to me, I escorted him first, second, third time to his farm. He told me, no, who won't be coming to Chipata to see my farm. [01:37:35] Speaker A: You should have your own farm. [01:37:36] Speaker B: Should have your own farm. Yeah, you should. Whether you like it or not, you should have your own farm. And when I bought that farm, you're the first person I told. I said, I finally. [01:37:47] Speaker A: Yes. And that's why you're doing your tobacco. Yes. [01:37:49] Speaker B: And each time, whether I'm there or not, he'll stop over at my farm and the report, the workers haven't done this or this and so on and so forth. He said, that's your identity. Yeah, it taught me invest in real estate. Told me when UNIP collapse, so many people collapse, the leaders collapse. Yeah. Everything gone. Those of us who invested in real estate were able to sell a house and pay for school fees and look after ourselves and to go and watch. Remember as a soccer fan used to go all over watch following Zambia national team. So where do you think the money was coming from? So that is what he helped me believe in. And so I'm a believer in land. When I see land, regardless of the area, whether it's in Javuma, Zambezi, I apply. I apply. [01:38:45] Speaker A: As long as you see this Land [01:38:46] Speaker B: apply because God has stopped making countries. So I know that if I don't apply another foreigner get. So I'll get it. Then all of you will be coming to me. [01:39:00] Speaker A: Now I wish I could share my. My experience, but maybe off camera, because there's a piece of land that I invested money in some five years ago and the deal did not materialize the way I wanted it to be. So I kind of. I got shocked. But as you are speaking, I was just thinking about that land because I know I paid good money out, out like a good chunk of my savings. I paid for it and I'm talking at least in excess of 200 hectares. So I'll. I'll follow up. I hope, I hope you don't charge me for legal. Legal fees. [01:39:37] Speaker B: Well, well, well, well. [01:39:38] Speaker A: We winding up. One of the things that we want to bring out is special. Thanks, guys. I don't know if you'd have a question, but I don't know much of time. He has a question for you. Cancel. [01:39:54] Speaker B: Seeing that you grew up in material [01:39:56] Speaker A: and you've achieved so much for yourself, [01:39:59] Speaker B: my question is for a guy like this who's grown up in Kaunda Square and looking at the finer things of life, you've gone through the process of being brought up in a compound and then you've escaped the compound and sought for finer things in life. Life from the cultures that you've experienced [01:40:19] Speaker A: that we practice in such environments. [01:40:23] Speaker B: Which one have helped you to become the successful DJ that you are? [01:40:30] Speaker A: And which one do you look as [01:40:32] Speaker B: to say these cultural practices or habits, characters would have hindered me from? Because imagine the DJ that I am today. Wow. I like the youth of the way they kept. Indeed I escaped. You know, the. The Jews are an interesting group and I do quite a lot of work with them. My clients have learned a lot. You know, there are certain things we take for granted here, culturally, this business. You invite your friend for a drink, he just comes a drink, because you are the one who's invited to pay the bills. And he lives, you know, there. They share the bills. There's no friendship in. When it comes to business. You know, when it comes to business, it's business when it comes to entertainment. Entertainment. He said, oh, but, but you are brothers, you've sued each other. Yeah, it was a business transaction. Yeah. I have a friend who has even sued his son. [01:41:44] Speaker A: His son. [01:41:45] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a business transaction away from family business. That's why probably they're successful. They take things very serious for us. Do you know, in Zambia, you can wake up today and go to granddaddies and get drunk without spending a singong way. Because everybody gives. When we have money, we want to show off. The Jews don't show off. We want to buy the most expensive car. I want to live the most flamboyant life. They're always humble, but when they tell this the billionaire, you can see some trends of billionaire and they build on generations. Yeah. Now to answer your question, I don't know how we can resolve this issue culturally, especially in Zambia, that we don't build on the successes of our parents, [01:42:45] Speaker A: we start our own. [01:42:46] Speaker B: No, we actually destroy what is left by our parents. So if you look at the big names of the Kaunda days, how many of those families are successful? You'll find that their farms have been sold by their children. They've divided things up there and sort. Yeah. The only classical case is tisha for a tier. And when you look back you say, you can say he took over school, which was very little, which the parents left. And yeah. How many of those cases do we have? Very few. Because culturally we spoil our children when they take over. We don't prepare them to take off. Go to an Indian shop, you find a five, six year old child is hanging around. Same with the Jews. Knows how to count the money, knows the value of the money. I'll tell you, one of the most annoying thing in Zambia is that we don't know the value of money. You can even be insulted on your own money. Yeah, because we like spending. Yeah. You always must say if I have to give you 1000, do you know what 1000 Kwacha is? 1000 could be actually my 2 hour consultation fee with a client, for instance. And I've given it away. It means I've worked for two hours [01:44:10] Speaker A: for you and you have gotten it. Value for money. [01:44:14] Speaker B: We must put value to money that if somebody gives you a civil servant give you 100 quarter, ask yourself what is the salary? What is the percentage has he given you? And you don't even say thank you. Because we are over entitled to people's success and money. Families will hate you because you did not help. When in fact you have a budget which is meant for a certain thing, for money to develop. It means you are planning, you can have. And this is what happened even with the lawyers. You can have 20 million quarter in your account. It is the client's account, that's not your money. So you must develop a discipline not to touch even if you are in a crisis. Because the moment you Touch, then that behavior will continue. Then you will not be able to pay back. So we must learn to live within our means. And at the post we even had a saying about it. When we see somebody is not living within his means. We had a friend who you afford to buy an hamburger when our salaries couldn't afford us to buy a number. So we used to go up to now when we see this guy, we laugh. Likes living beyond humans because what we could afford is to put money together and walk to town center market and buy and eat together. Yeah, yeah. So if you have those threats, it will be difficult to develop. So I try to live within my means. Yeah, I try to live within my means. So I have friends who play golf every day. I would love to play golf every day. I can't afford. I play once a week. I can afford. Yeah. So do you pay caddies? Yes, of course. [01:46:10] Speaker A: Okay. Is it like per hour? [01:46:12] Speaker B: No, no, it's per session. This nine holes or 18 hours or per session. Yeah. [01:46:17] Speaker A: So okay then average fee? Because. [01:46:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean it depends. Like usually it's about 250 to 300 quarter 18 horse. [01:46:24] Speaker A: Okay. [01:46:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:46:25] Speaker A: Okay. [01:46:25] Speaker B: So we must develop this issue of respecting money. We don't respect money. [01:46:35] Speaker A: You just opened up another episode on that one. Well, can we, can we end? Do you have any last message you'd like to send? Mr. Jerry, on this platform you can look in the camera and give your last statement. [01:46:51] Speaker B: Well, for me is the message I've consistently delivered, whether it's in church, in schools and whatever. Parents, let's take our children to school. [01:47:02] Speaker A: Yes. [01:47:02] Speaker B: In whatever form. Let's just take them to school. It is education that will equalize everybody. At the end of the day, a poor child or a child from a poor family and a child from a rich family, they will meet in cabinet room as ministers because they are educated. The child who was born in a king's house, who salute a poor child's kid as the president because of education. Yeah. So we must take education very seriously. When a child has dropped out of school, we must find a reason and get them back to school. [01:47:48] Speaker A: Yes. [01:47:49] Speaker B: We have several examples of people who dropped at Grade 7, Grade 9 and never went back. And now they are disaster. We have good examples of those who repeated and then made it. [01:48:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:48:01] Speaker B: Into professors into something. So let's invest in our kids education. For a country to develop, it must have a citizen who are educated and it's easy even to govern. And so whether you're in the village, you're in down education is no compromise for a child. And for me, I usually say bare minimum, let them have a college level education. Then things can open up. That's my message. Yes. [01:48:38] Speaker A: So you see when we're telling you that we're going to have a great episode, [01:48:44] Speaker B: this has been a good, good episode. [01:48:47] Speaker A: Body. Well, you had it not from me, but from the man himself, Mr. Dixon, Jerry, who is somebody who's passionate about education and other people who disagree with certain things that he puts up. But he understands the value, and not just value, but quality education. We wrap up this episode and looking forward to the next episode. Give us the feedback, give us the likes, the shares. We are grateful. We just. My personal page reached 30. Now it's at 31k thousand followers. Which is, which is beautiful. And the Z age you think is at 50. We appreciate our YouTube has reason. Last time I gave this app we were less than 2. Now we're going to 4. I think we're 3.5. So we appreciate. We want everybody who believes in education to join this agenda because. Yes. Oh yeah. I'm just being told there are people that have said, but why have you stopped doing the weekly episodes? Truth be told, I'm paying off my pocket and we're trying to make sure that we can manage the episodes. So if you noticed, we stopped doing the weekly. But for those that would like to partner with us, you can come and advertise. We've got packages that people that want to advertise. For those that just have donations, feel free and make sure that we make it known in Zambia and beyond that education is the agenda. Until next time, signing out.